When Should You Shoot A Cop?

The basic problem i have seen in the years since i join was the socalled i have to have the better toy than the bad guys thinking ..Some of the officer's i worked with would have never passed in the old day's with the training officer i had and he was a real pick of a guy ..

But in the end i was glad i had him because he was the one who told me in the end when you get off work you also of the town and remember that ..

Tactics change in the 90's to more of a military feel to how we did the enforcement of the law and how we dealt with people on the side of good or bad ..

I used to get alot of tips from the socalled bad people who i dealt with over the basic fact i treated them like a person or looked in on there family's when they inside ..

That counted alot to some of them .One of the toughest SOB i knew had a very soft spot for his mother and when i would stop by and talk to her or bring her ice or some basic food items from the food bank and i did this with alot of the people in my area .

That paid off bring down the line with him ..He was in Federal court and asked a Marshal to get me and told me that i had a price on my head over shooting the guy that was on the take along with every one that was involved that day had a price on there head for there action in the case ..

When asked why he said you take care of my mother and that means alot to me because no matter what happens to me at least one person in this world does something for her ..He asked me a question that day and i have not seen him or his mother since ..So maybe he got the right answer from me that day ..

We paid them a vist and explained to them there prostion in this world and how much they could live with the past beening the past or go to jail or get a dirt nap in a short time if they want to start it right here and now with there because it was not a problem with me and few of the fellows that where with me that day ..One of the guys told that he had a golf game to get to so make up your mind ..

When i got in the vehicle i was laughing so hard and he goes what i told the guy the truth i have a 3.pm tee time so get to or get off the pot ..

 

This right here is the heart of my problem with law enforcement today. The vast majority of the people out here are good, and respect the badge and the position of the leo's. If you want to put labels on anything or anybody, lets consider the "us or them" mentality (leos versis civilians) that sits right under the hat of most leos. It's BS because probably 90% of the civilian population would come to the aid of a leo in a heartbeat.
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So you have this very common ingrained "us versis them" mentality, along with a reved up quasi military stormtrooper tactics, and you start to get into an everyday situation with Joe the Plumber or Suzie Soccer Mom being treated like total crap for a simple traffic stop or whatever.
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Then you have all three branches of government ..... Executive, Judicial, and Legislative, passing laws that in no way pass the sniff test when it comes to the Constitution. How many leos are truly up on Constitutional Law? Not a high percentage I would guess. I say this because there was a time when common sense in this country was common. Not today! There was a time when jury nulification wasn't a racial thing to keep someone of your own minority skin color from going to jail. Unjust laws were the reason for most jury nulification. Zero tolerance is another sore point with me. As is jury selection. Juries are cherry picked by the prosecution and the defense to try to stack the deck in their favor. It should be a random selection completely. The jurors themselves will let the judge know if there is a member overtly over the line and unreasonable to listen to the facts as presented.
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I guess I have rambled on enough, but to sum up; Some times its hard to keep your mouth and emotions in check when the entire country as you knew it growing up, is turned upside down and common sense across the board is dead. When laws are unjust but enforced with great vigor by local keystone kops with an attitude trying to act like storm troopers.
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The whole concept or question of this thread was about when is it okay to take up arms against the authorities, local state, federal, or military.
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I would hope the answer to that would be never. However as I look around me, and take in what I see and hear, and know to be true, I can only assume that at some point in the near or far future there will have to be some sort of reversal of the present status quo. A return of common sense and justice for all. An awareness of the Constitution and a repeal of a ton of BS laws that do not pass the sniff test.
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Waco and Ruby Ridge were brought up earlier in this thread. If I am on my property and I encounter someone armed and unknown to me, you can be pretty damn sure they are close to being shot if they do something stupid. Truth is in a situation like that I would feel a whole lot more comfortable if there were more wittnesses on both sides. If someone starts to draw his weapon and point it at me on my own property when I know I am innocent of any crime that I am aware of, I am not clear on his intentions and in fear for my life. I might shoot as quick and straight as I can and let God and 12 jurors sort it out. Police officer or not. Identified or not.
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Actually no answer to the question of this thread is right or wrong because there is insufficient information, and it is a hypothetical question. jmho

 

How many times have we heard about home invasions where the perps yell 'POLICE' ?

Can you tell the difference in the middle of the night?

It is a scary situation for all involved: police, perps, innocent victims.

I can assure you that all of us will either:
shoot
retreat
observe
or comply
It all depends on the situation

There are always choices in every situation.

OK now let's have a beer

 

This is my sentiment as well ^

Just for reference, the change in the 90s was due to this:
YouTube - ‪North Hollywood Shootout‬‏

It wasn't this one incident either. There were several where local handgun wielding cops were outgunned. Thank you Al Pacino

Regular LEOs having an assault rifle instead of a shotty made sense from that point on. Like BTPost said.... I don't think FA is needed. I don't *think* most of the patrol or SWAT issue carbines are FA. I am sure there are a few exceptions, but I can't think of a local department that uses FA. Less rounds being fired in a bad situation is better for the department from a liability standpoint.

I'm in On the Police Identification thing.... cops have been shot before in plain clothes for not properly identifying themselves. Perpetrators have gotten off for those charges in such circumstances. *Most* departments have a "soft knock" preference with clear cut identification guidelines. A warrant has to be served before a search. There are a few unusual circumstances.... high risk felony arrests of violent criminals come to mind. In that case, its useful to place yourself in the police shoes and ask yourself how you would enter such a situation. Is putting yourself at a tactical disadvantage by announcing your presence a good idea when "gansta" ain't going back to jail for a 3rd strike? He has nothing to lose. No-knock warrants are issued by judges in those cases. Not all departments allow no-knocks. Especially after that NV case.

Generally speaking, if you see a guy with "POLICE" written across his chest... he may have a legal authority to search your house. It may be utter nonsense that could be cleared up by talking it out and allowing the search. I would at least listen to what he says before shooting him dead. In the Waco case, I can't say for certain the Davidians had anything illegal inside. The BATFE says they had FA, but I have never seen a technical report on any of the burned up weapons. As for Ruby Ridge... they had legal cause to arrest and search the premises. It was a BS shotty overall length charge. By fighting back, he lost his entire family. I think the FBI agents should have been charged in that incident, but Randy Weaver could have gotten off of those charges easily by complying and fighting in court. Just like when BATFE tried to prosecute an AOW charge based on a vertical fore-grip mounted to a pistol... the court saw right through the regulation BS that BATFE makes up (US v. Davis). The system does work. Its in place to prevent justice at the end of a gun. That works both ways. JMHO

I'm having a New Belgium 1554

 

or we could discuss the war on innocent people drugs

The Drug War’s Einsatzgruppen by William Norman Grigg

and then have a beer or two or a case. hiccup.

I'm sorry i just had to post the link to stir the pot.

 

The biggest problem with the North Hollywood ShootOut was over the fact that the police dept where not ready for a crew like this along with head in it sand thinking along the upper level of the dept at the time ..


For years people where saying that LA the home of the US Bank Robbery Captial of the Us .At one point in time Boston and LA where the two Worst states for bank robbery and armored car robbery because of the crews where pro's at doing it ..

Alot of the old timers had said that We where going to see a crew that knew how to fight it out in the streets with the police and the police are going to get them butt's handed to them in the fight ..Hollywood and Maimi proved that point .

They should have let them go and then dealt with them with SIS following them and leading them to there place .They had poped up on the radar a couple of time's in the past and the FBI who has bank robbery task force did not or would not share info that could stoped them before that day ..

I'm like Bruce on this one when it comes to full auto weapon in the heads of the police dept . It should be allowed in special unit's only and then heavy training on the use of them ..

Now because of the remoteness where i worked i had in my partol vehicle beside my duty sidearm and back up piece ..1-12.ga pump-shotgun 1-Rem-700.308-Heavy Barrel scoped rifle with scope and other items to act as a DMR for those long range shot's out in the middle of nowhere where the range to a person could be over 700 yards away or more . -1-Ar-15-carbine with it goodies on the carbine ..

The carbine and shotgun where up front with me in a custom back of the headrest mount set up in the vehicle and the rifle and the rest of the gear was in the vehicle trunk locked up out of sight of the people ..I had a couple days worth of food and water and other supplies for me and someone else if we got stuck in the back country ..Plus a other supplies in the vehicle .The vehicle was a pack mule because of the remoteness of where we where at times.

 

The truth is far different that the twisted "Alex Jones fantasy world" you blindly follow.

And it doesn't shock me you started this thread to use fear mongering to "spark" some sick little twisted civil war fantasy you have. I guess life must be pretty sad to sit around and hope for war on a daily basis. I really feel sorry for you Brokor. You know why there is no war... because although the system we live in isn't perfect, it's far from lost and far from that "tyrannical" crap you are always spewing.

As for your boot-licking comment... stick it. You want people licking YOUR boot. That's the reality of the anarchy you and others espouse. You feel so helpless in this reality that you have to hope for a different reality where you are on top.

I'm every bit as entitled to an opinion as you are. If you don't agree with me fine, post your opinion or counter-argument. I am re-reading your last it it say s jack-sh*t. Of course what you wanted was a free for all "fire in a theater" police bashing session where everyone goes out and bags em' an LEO. I'm sorry if my opinion wasn't "in line" with how you think the group should think. At least 3 people liked my initial post into this thread. It turns out diversity is welcomed.

 

Weak like your last post?
Yeah... trolling = disagreeing with Brokor.

I do agree Ghrit... lock it.

The personal attacks are unwarranted. They are empty posts just jumping on someone for someone having a differing opinion.

(I am at least a little sorry for responding to that earlier post)

 

Like I said... another informative post. Now I am a "hack" or "troll" for disagreeing. You would be much better off not drawing an "agree with Brokor" line all the time and accept the fact that you may not always be right and not everything is as black and white as your opinion.

You post something in an open forum, not everyone is going to agree. Post it to your blog if you don't want leave open for discussion.

 

I'm not playing any part here. Really, you can stop with the name calling.

You are defining liberty how you see fit. I don't disagree with liberty. I disagree with your definition of liberty. This is way off the original subject now.