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When to shoot the Colonels

Discussion in 'Freedom and Liberty' started by SLugomist, Jan 6, 2010.

  1. SLugomist

    SLugomist Monkey++

    Dueling views: When to shoot the Colonels vs. Small gun groups don't stand a chance.

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    by ex Marine and author.


    "At ease, Marines, and be seated" orders the gruff Gunnery Sergeant. "Now turn to Chapter 8 in your Military Constitutional Law text," he continues. "Today we discuss the appropriate conditions for shooting a colonel who is issuing an order which would violate the Constitutional rights of American ci More..tizens. Our first scenario involves gun seizures..."

    Absurd, isn't it, to think that this sort of education is conducted among our armed forces? Yet, millions of citizens indulge this unspoken fantasy each time they imagine that the military exists to preserve our freedoms.

    When I was at the Naval Academy in the mid-80s, and a Marine officer in the late 1980s and early 1990s, discussion of such issues was considered taboo. One fellow junior officer even scoffed that "Congress can change that Constitution any time they like." This isn't to say that there wasn't an undercurrent among most of the warfighters that issues such as gun control and preservation freedom of speech might one day pose a crisis of command. Yet this undercurrent was kept carefully concealed, and tended to become a more and more uncomfortable subject as the ranks of one's company became more elevated. Fortunately, with the Soviets and the threat of global thermonuclear war, these issues seemed far removed and safe from serious discussion.

    Not so today. In the aftermath of Katrina, armed and uniformed soldiers patrolled the streets and disarmed Americans. Some uniformed soldiers were captured on film lamenting that "I can't believe that we're doing this to Americans." Yet, they did it anyway, lamentations notwithstanding. But why?

    To answer that, we need to understand the principles of military command and education. For veterans, this discussion is unnecessary. For the vast number of non-veterans, especially those who harbor that most dangerous and ill-advised fantasy of a Constitutionally-aware military, this discussion is essential to survival.

    American military education is one of the most finely tuned and adapted mechanisms in the world for instilling knowledge into its students. No other school or university can come close to the efficiency at which military knowledge is imparted to novices. There are even courses, such as Principles of Military Instruction, for how to teach military courses. These courses even teach how to develop such courses from scratch. The famous John Saxon math courses, popular among homeschoolers, exhibit these techniques, courtesy of that former Air Force officer and academy instructor. Military courses developed along these lines tend to be highly effective at teaching motivated students. Students motivated to learn how to do things such as extinguish fires or shoot missiles. Or shoot you.

    As a result, if it is worth teaching to soldiers, sailors, airmen or Marines, it is worth embodying in a course. Captured as a course or in official manuals, such instruction is available to all for review and comment to make sure that the correct instruction is given, and given correctly. Conversely, if it doesn't exist as a course, it isn't being taught. And if it isn't being taught, it isn't even on the radar of the military mind. At least not the minds of those in command. Good luck finding a course such as "When to Shoot the Colonels" in a military instruction catalogue.

    Even basics such as reading and writing and math are available as courses. But not shooting colonels. What colonel would even authorize such a thing? Only a colonel who realizes that one day he might have to shoot a general, of course. But that would require a separate course for command grades, entitled "When to Shoot the Generals." And who would authorize that? We can keep climbing this chain all the way up, if we like, but at some point the absurdity makes its point. No one in a position of command or power is going to surrender that power for something as irrelevant as your rights.

    And what if a particular soldier scored highly on such a course? What colonel would hand out high efficiency reports on his potential executioner?

    Another aspect of this problem that needs to be clearly understood is that all modern American military officers are political appointees. Surprised? You shouldn't be. As a practical exercise ask one to read his commission document to you. Pay particular attention to the "follow lawful orders" part, along with the "serve at the pleasure of the President" phrase. Oath of office notwithstanding, nothing in that document says anything about what to do about unlawful orders. Or even lawful orders, such as "seize all guns because Congress authorized it," which haven't yet stood the test of the judicial branch to adjudge Constitutionality. And like that 1stLt said, enough Congressmen can get together and change that Constitution. The Constitution itself says so.

    Besides, if some uppity colonel out there decided to start authorizing instruction about when to shoot the colonels, you can bet that pretty quick the President would no longer be pleased. Because he or she would know where that path must ultimately lead. Which is why uppity colonels don't stay colonels for very long. Political appointees, my friends. That vision you have in your head of the noble military protecting your rights is just a dangerous fantasy. A fantasy you have to get rid of right now, before it gets you killed.

    "But wait," you say, "I know Sgt. Soandso, and he would never go along with a gun seizure." Maybe not, but then again, you might be surprised. To "not go along" would mean that he has to violate orders. This violation would at the very least be a career-killer, or possibly get him shot in an extreme situation. Shot by who? By all the other sergeants who don't want to get shot, of course. After all, the colonel only needs a handful of sergeants who are in it for a career, and a raft of lieutenants, captains and majors who one day want to be colonels. For you to have your rights protected would require that a sufficient number of each of these decide, simultaneously, to put on the brakes. It is easier just to shoot you for resisting and go about their day. Say it again, "political appointees."

    Besides, if all of these people decide in unison to protect you, and in so doing put their own careers, freedoms and life on the line, who is going to protect them? You? And if so, how? You needed them to protect you in the first place. And if Sgt. Soandso gets shot protecting your rights, what about his family? Retribution aside, who takes care of them with him out of the picture? Worse, after Sgt. Soandso gets shot, some corporal will be there ready to pin on those chevrons. And you can bet that to that guy, you are a minor inconvenience in his day. You wouldn't get lucky enough to get a chain of noble soldiers to protect you. When the day arrives, all of those political appointees will have scrubbed the ranks of those pesky oathkeepers anyway. Those oathkeepers who remain hidden in ranks will be in an impossible situation.

    And we haven't even discussed the false-flagging of dressing foreign troops in American uniforms to capitalize on the unwillingness of Americans to kill "our boys." I'll save that one for later.

    So if the military doesn't exist to protect our rights and freedoms, why does it exist? The answer is simple. It exists to back our national will with force. Most of the time, that is a good thing, particularly when our national will is to not be attacked by jackasses who threaten us. But when the national will turns to taking your guns away, you will be the jackass who threatens "us." Then the military will execute that national will with cold, unthinking and bureaucratic efficiency. And wrap itself in the flag while doing so.

    Want to have some fun? Walk up to any active duty serviceman you wish, shake his hand and thank him for his service. Then, before you release his hand, pull him toward you slightly, look into his eyes and tell him, "now when the time comes, don't forget what your oath really means." Do this ten times, and the reactions of that little informal poll will tell you everything you need to know. Having divested yourself of that little fantasy, maybe you will have a chance to survive that gun seizure for the real battle later. At the very least you will have looked into the eyes of some of the enemy, constituted of complacency and obedience, you may one day face.

    Tom Baugh


    Starving the Monkeys



    Small gun groups don't stand chance vs. U.S. governmentAlamogordo Daily News
    Michael Glover, Alamogordo
    Posted: 01/02/2010 12:00:00 AM MST

    You've got to hand it to these wingnut, right-wing fringe lunatics. They are a tenacious bunch and they really have the passive-aggressive tantrum act down to an art, don't they?

    After thoroughly embarrassing themselves last year with their self-appointed moniker of simple "tea baggers" before researching the various nuances of the term, now they simply want to have a "tea party" in the park without, of course, the cups, saucers, scones, crumpets and extended pinkies Š or even tea, for that matter.

    This time, they want to "exercise" their Second Amendment "rights" by packing and displaying firearms. As a firearm owner and Second Amendment advocate, I have to say these people may just serve as a good example of why many in this country would like to see the Second Amendment repealed.

    Our Constitution guarantees us the right to keep and bear arms. I own many firearms and am content with my right to own them. Still, there is a big difference between owning and using them at will for recreation or showing up on a street corner (or a movie theater) for a radical, politically-charged protest a gun strapped to your hip.

    This is not the Wild West anymore. There is really no reason to open-carry in public like these freaks will do. I interpret "open-carry" to mean that any time I travel in my vehicle with any weapon, I need to have them on the seat, in plain sight, to any law enforcement official I may encounter so that they can be confident I don't have any hidden "surprises" for them. I don't interpret this as some kind of "right" to stroll through Walgreens with a Mac-10 hanging from my shoulder. These people do more damage than good to our Second Amendment rights.

    Besides that, they don't even know what they are protesting in the first place! The Obama administration has given no indication that it intends to touch the Second Amendment. The NRA has a long history of whipping conservatives into this same frenzy every time a Democratic president takes office. Again and again, these reactionaries fall for it.

    It may be a lot of fun to show off your guns in the park while making a lot of noise and posing an implied threat of overthrowing your own government. If push ever came to shove, though, I'm afraid this "cowboy" mentality just wouldn't hold up long with U.S. soldiers and snipers shooting back.


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  2. dragonfly

    dragonfly Monkey+++

    But, it appears to be okay to stand in front of a voting place with a nightstick and make threats.....All the while dressed to the nines in military garb!
    Being in Arizona, I have the right to "open carry" here, but I seldom use it....
    On my own land where I may encounter a snake, a rabid coyote, a mountain lion or even a bear, I feel it's more appropriate than a foolish man that walks into a bar with any weapon in open sight.
    I suppose it's all about perspective.....
    Now a group walking around in a park, armed to the teeth, well I have a different view of that!
    Especially in the public, and having juveniles anywhere in the vicinty....
    I have seen an accidental discharge from a weapon that fell out of a shoulder holster....It ain't pretty!
    (And,.....It was mine!)
  3. tacmotusn

    tacmotusn Mosquito Sailor

    The first half of Slugomist's post I found to be thought provoking, and quite and eye opener. In my opinion things are going to have to change back in the direction of the original Constitution by legal and legislative means sometime in the next few years, or there is going to be one hell of a fight. Washington is out of control with spending and abusing the rights of the people. The infamous 535 have to go. Their replacements are going to have to understand that a return to the Constitution is the only thing that is going to make the people happy. Term limits that max out at 12 years should be an early change. Auto pay raises for legislators at anything more than COLA needs to go. The 535 should be on the same rules and regulations and healthcare plans and retirement plans as the rest of us. What the hell is with a retirement plan that allows you to go to Washington for a term as a lowly congressman or senator, and then you draw 100 percent pay for the rest of your life. I am not so sure I approve of that for the President either, but at least there has only been less than 50 of them, and how many are still drawing entitlements. Congressmen and Senators do not deserve Presidential retirement programs. Never have never will! How the hell that ever got by the American people is anybodies guess and it is an aboration that needs to be eliminated first before any other entitlement programs are cut. Somehow I definately got off track here. ... sorry
    As for the second half of the post about the open carry advocates. Well I am old enough to remember when a 16 year old carrying a 22 rifle in town or on his bike didn't trigger a response from the local swat squad, and a lockdown of the local schools. I got a CCW as soon as possible in Florida soon after the NRA and the state of Florida put together the first common sense CCW license and law. I carry most of the time and most everywhere legal. There are too many low lifes walking the streets now days not to. JMHO of course.[stirpot]
  4. Seawolf1090

    Seawolf1090 Adventure Riding Monkey Founding Member

    Glover blew his entire credibility with his first two sentences - anything further said is invalid - he has shown himself a member of the opposite extreme - the Loony Left. So what if he's a 'gun owner' - when the word is given by those on high, he will hand in his guns and bow down......

    Many of us will NOT....... [freedom]
  5. Brokor

    Brokor Live Free or Cry Moderator Site Supporter+++ Founding Member

  6. SLugomist

    SLugomist Monkey++

    I've read in many boards on this subject, " i know military or police and they said they wouldn't fire on their family and friends" and everytime I think well I'm not as most other people, their family or their friend.

    Anyway I thought this article to be a realist view of that issue, so I posted it.

  7. Brokor

    Brokor Live Free or Cry Moderator Site Supporter+++ Founding Member

    It was an excellent find. The Author is not as rough around the edges as I am, so the dialogue is easy to follow.

    And it is a tough reality to consider our troops acting like police and having to combat us, but what is rarely taken into consideration is the manner at which it will most likely occur. First, the Police themselves have been trained to be resentful toward civilians, there is little doubt in my mind that most will happily enforce the "law" no matter what. Next, we have the illusion of domestic terrorism, where the average dissenting citizen is immediately branded as a criminal and subject to be detained for "routine questioning". Large assemblies are illegal, that is, it is illegal in the eye of the corporate government. With the terror alert on red, all people will be forced to stay indoors, curfews will be set, and communications severely limited. Media will naturally play a crucial role in portraying the situation just the way the government needs it to appear so that their troops can maneuver without too much interference. Road blocks and checkpoints will become the normalcy, and it will keep most people from organizing.

    As the people sit huddled in their homes, glued to the TV for more updates on the status of our fear-stricken nation, house to house raids are conducted to seize weapons and ammunition which can be used by the evil terrorists or cause undue harm to the civilians, which the government will undoubtedly protect. As the few remaining groups of resistance is quelled, (labeled as terrorists) and weapons confiscated, the relocation procedure can be placed into high gear. People are told that there is a gas leak, or a dangerous anthrax outbreak, or some other pandemic.

    With as many criminals in this country who have weapons and exist entirely outside the law and naturalization process, and with as many convicted prison inmates waiting to bust loose, I doubt that the government will have a tough time locating a scapegoat. Let's not forget the foreign troops...

    Yes, our own boys will follow orders. Some will have a conflict of interest, some will disobey, but in the end, they will follow orders. Guaranteed. Plus, the military has its very own television network, AFN. They will be told that what they are doing is actually helping Americans, not harming them. They will only be fighting the BAD people, the enemy. With their snitches in place, and their children Stassi reporting the whereabouts of resistance cells (see also parents), the military troops will engage swiftly with extreme prejudice and bring about a happier, safer America.

    And all of that was just the beginning phase.
  8. Tango3

    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

    So whattyadoo go down in blaze of taxpayer funded 5.56?"we" the ones in imimnent threat need to move to the "tristates" now,leaving our old lives sitting on the table with the remnants of of a still warm plate of dinner...Oris tomorrow a good day to hike the AT for 6 months or so.?
  9. SLugomist

    SLugomist Monkey++

    Anyone who does goes down in a blaze, it won't be on the news and if it is, it'd be some "lunatic drug addict was taken out by law enforcement for who knows what". Instead of the truth that an american patriot standing up for the constitution was gunned down by local law enforcement. They wouldn't want to drum up support.

    So I guess when we start seeing a bunch of stories on the TV about armed stand offs from crazy druggies, then that may be the signal the confiscations are starting?
  10. Brokor

    Brokor Live Free or Cry Moderator Site Supporter+++ Founding Member

    Yeah, much is still up for debate since the "soft kill" method is a constant work in progress. I think that one of the keys will be via the medical field; vaccines which will become mandatory, carefully guised as voluntary. Any who do not voluntarily "comply" are subject to fines, persecution, imprisonment, or relocation, etc. This *could* spark revolt, but only in pockets, which can be easily managed. Time is not on our side, since so many have chosen not to prepare -water, food, sanitation, heat/shelter...Who knows? Perhaps the vaccine info can be integrated into the National ID cards.

    Now, if the American People were to rally early on and create enough support for ONE cause? Well, that would send tremors of chilled ice through the Elitist's spines. Assuming that they even have spinal columns.
  11. Sherman

    Sherman Dog Eat Dog

    don't know if anyone has noticed but the military has a difficult issue when faced with insurgent populations. Vietnam, Iran, Afghanistan....

    American citizens are well armed, 1.5 million new guns purchased EACH MONTH. To put that in perspective the Chinese Red Army is 1.3 million soldiers.
    We have many civilian marksmen and sport shooters. That's one thing that made a difference in the revolutionary war, we were good shooters. We have many military trained veterans. These are resources the French Underground never had.

    To qoute Fight Club "Hi. You're going to call off your rigorous investigation. You're going to publicly state that there is no underground group. Or... these guys are going to take your balls. They're going to send one to the New York Times, one to the LA Times press-release style. Look, the people you are after are the people you depend on. We cook your meals, we haul your trash, we connect your calls, we drive your ambulances. We guard you while you sleep. Do not... **** with us."
  12. Brokor

    Brokor Live Free or Cry Moderator Site Supporter+++ Founding Member

    haha, true Sherman. And Fight Club is just awesome. ;)

    I see the point in arguing this matter because even though we do have so many armed citizens, some of whom are veterans and trained experts, we also have something many other nations do not have...massive media propaganda campaigns and a divided culture. Not just divided, massively divided at nearly every level. The other nations you cited are used to having uprisings -they are typically a people who have been usurped enough for them to recognize when they are being trampled. The American People have become consumer whore ZOMBIES, little more. They are complacent and spoiled. Their decadence and lifestyles are on the table to be exchanged for "liberty"...do you really believe the majority would make the offer?

    But, let's extrapolate the possibilities of an organized resistance, best case scenario to be certain. Major cities are excluded, for obvious reasons. If anybody needs me to explain this, please just ask. The smaller towns and suburbs would be all that remain. Consequently, this is also where the majority of gun owners reside. We would have slow pockets of resistance spring up at first, followed by more as time continues -but we must not forget the ever impending question of whether or not the majority of these gun owners (typically sportsman hunter types) would actually be willing to stop working, leave the kid at home, or risk life to join a band of armed citizens he has absolutely no common ground with (in his mind). The point I am making is this; complacency kills far more effectively than bullets ever will. The fear of losing a job is going to have to be weighed against the fight for freedom -and this is not exactly the decision being made in the minds of many Americans. They still trust their government, at least the state government, and they will not be willing to do what is necessary. As citizens are hauled away, as gunshots fill the air, and as the news reports come in daily about "uprisings", the general perception will be clouded and vague enough to placate the issue. Just like everything else (Watergate, Chinagate, Assassinations, Bush impeachment and scandals, Obama scandals and illegitimacy, etc) the American People appear to have a very SHORT memory, and soon everything will be forgotten. *click* Oh look, Oprah is coming back! Michael Jackson updates, wow. Economy in crisis, boy I am glad I kept my job! Oh look, a group of Anarchists just robbed that poor old lady.

    Nobody is going to fight in the numbers we will need until THEIR door is being knocked down and THEIR guns are being confiscated. That's the best case scenario.
  13. Sherman

    Sherman Dog Eat Dog

    You make very good points, these are questions that have rattled around in my gray matter and hopefully will go unanswered.

    Heres what spilled out of my head....

    I think that any action the gubmint took (martial law, gun grab etc) that would be preceded by a major catastrophe that impacted most people (SHTF to some degree) wether it be pandemic or economic collapse.

    More people than not would be unemployed, adding fuel to the fires of unrest. Protests and rioting are daily occurrences, crime skyrockets, Government services collapse under strain.
    Perhaps this is the reason Martial law is declared.

    In which case lifestyles would be disrupted already and the choice would be made for them between job or revolt. Consumerism replaced by necessity.

    Isolated uprisings will be squashed ie Ruby Ridge and Waco but perhaps on larger scales. I don't see a "free america" that is not occupied or a frontline or armies form, one wearing chocolate chip, the other multicam. Strictly guerrilla warfare.
    Maybe areas like Northern California Montana and Idaho would be untamed, where military convoys are ambushed routinely like northern Afghanistan etc.

    I think the resistance will be within and part of the commmunity, including metro areas. Not a large organized militia but isolated cells of 5-6 operators with tight OPSEC.

    They will appear average in all respects.... buy coffee at Starbucks, ride the bus, they could be your neighbor or even the bus driver, someone you say good morning to everyday.

    But they will be building IEDs and car bombs to assault and sabotage gubmint control at every opportunity including perceived supporters of the regime, say GE or Power and utility companies. Or Chase and JP Morgan etc corporations that benefit economically.

    The government and media will label them terrorists or death squads, they will call themselves freedom fighters. I cannot guess as to how public opinion will view them.

    How's that for crazy talk? :)

    Wasn't it only about 30% of the population that supported the Revolutionary war?
  14. SLugomist

    SLugomist Monkey++

    3% during the Revolutionary war
  15. BAT1

    BAT1 Cowboys know no fear

    Yes, it will be started by oathbreakers. I hope and pray that it will be finished by oathkeepers all over the world. We will need divine intervention.
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