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When will the gun control types figure it out?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by tulianr, Dec 17, 2012.

  1. tulianr

    tulianr Don Quixote de la Monkey

    The lady who wrote this article understands that the discussion should not be about gun control, it should be about our national failure to properly address mental illness. I've provided excerpts, but the full article is worth the time to read. I wish our politicians would read it.
    I Am Adam Lanza's Mother | Slog

    I live with a son who is mentally ill. I love my son. But he terrifies me.

    A few weeks ago, Michael pulled a knife and threatened to kill me and then himself after I asked him to return his overdue library books. His 7- and 9-year-old siblings knew the safety plan—they ran to the car and locked the doors before I even asked them to. I managed to get the knife from Michael, then methodically collected all the sharp objects in the house into a single Tupperware container that now travels with me. Through it all, he continued to scream insults at me and threaten to kill or hurt me.

    That conflict ended with three burly police officers and a paramedic wrestling my son onto a gurney for an expensive ambulance ride to the local emergency room. The mental hospital didn't have any beds that day, and Michael calmed down nicely in the ER, so they sent us home with a prescription for Zyprexa and a follow-up visit with a local pediatric psychiatrist.

    At the start of seventh grade, Michael was accepted to an accelerated program for highly gifted math and science students. His IQ is off the charts. When he's in a good mood, he will gladly bend your ear on subjects ranging from Greek mythology to the differences between Einsteinian and Newtonian physics to Doctor Who. He's in a good mood most of the time. But when he's not, watch out. And it’s impossible to predict what will set him off.

    At least we have health insurance now. I recently accepted a position with a local college, giving up my freelance career because when you have a kid like this, you need benefits. You'll do anything for benefits. No individual insurance plan will cover this kind of thing.

    For days, my son insisted that I was lying—that I made the whole thing up so that I could get rid of him. The first day, when I called to check up on him, he said, "I hate you. And I'm going to get my revenge as soon as I get out of here."

    By day three, he was my calm, sweet boy again, all apologies and promises to get better. I've heard those promises for years. I don't believe them anymore.

    On the intake form, under the question, "What are your expectations for treatment?" I wrote, “I need help.”

    And I do. This problem is too big for me to handle on my own. Sometimes there are no good options. So you just pray for grace and trust that in hindsight, it will all make sense.

    I am sharing this story because I am Adam Lanza's mother. I am Dylan Klebold's and Eric Harris's mother. I am Jason Holmes's mother. I am Jared Loughner's mother. I am Seung-Hui Cho's mother. And these boys—and their mothers—need help. In the wake of another horrific national tragedy, it’s easy to talk about guns. But it’s time to talk about mental illness.

    When I asked my son's social worker about my options, he said that the only thing I could do was to get Michael charged with a crime. “If he’s back in the system, they’ll create a paper trail," he said. "That's the only way you’re ever going to get anything done. No one will pay attention to you unless you’ve got charges."

    I don't believe my son belongs in jail. The chaotic environment exacerbates Michael's sensitivity to sensory stimuli and doesn’t deal with the underlying pathology. But it seems like the United States is using prison as the solution of choice for mentally ill people.

    No one wants to send a 13-year-old genius who loves Harry Potter and his snuggle animal collection to jail. But our society, with its stigma on mental illness and its broken healthcare system, does not provide us with other options. Then another tortured soul shoots up a fast food restaurant. A mall. A kindergarten classroom. And we wring our hands and say, “Something must be done.”

    Liza Long is an author, musician, and erstwhile classicist. She is also a single mother of four bright, loved children, one of whom has special needs.
    chelloveck likes this.
  2. chelloveck

    chelloveck Diabolus Causidicus

    You have identified one possible contributory issue that needs to be addressed....and although some perps undoubtedly have mental health issues...a fair swag of perps are not necessarily clinically insane. Another issue worthy of being considered is the psychological priming of mass casualty production...that PLUS the mechanised technology that facilitates killing. Yes...the human element provides the motivation and the intention to kill, and certainly the argument that humans kill...not inanimate objects has some merit...but individual humans (with only the most rudimentary of weapon handling skills) are capable of killing so much more efficiently with large magazine capacity automatic and semi automatic weapons than they can with knives, clubs, axes, swords or machetes.

    David Grossman (Author of "On Killing" and "On Combat") has some pertinent things to say about contemporary trends surrounding multiple fatality shooting rampages in the USA. The following Youtube videoclip where Grossman is being interviewed, viewed at the 19 minute and 30 second mark, expounds on this aspect of mass killing.

    Teaching Kids To Kill - Dave Grossman, Author
    VisuTrac likes this.
  3. CATO

    CATO Monkey+++

    At the risk of getting flamed, I'll post my thoughts that I've had for years on requirements for gun purchases (although, in this case, it wouldn't have mattered since the guns were not the property of the shooter).

    I want everyone to have a gun . . . except for those with a mental illness. It's like the North Koreans or Iranians having nukes: "yeah, I understand the need for protection of your country, buuuuut, you just can't be trusted....sorry."

    The BATFE form 4473 asks whether or not the purchaser has been "adjudicated" as mentally incompetent. OK...that's a good start. But, if you know anything about the pharmaceutical industry, you know that the number of prescriptions for mental issues like depression increase every year. Couple that with a long list of drugs (e.g., Rheumatoid Arthritis) that has side-effects of "thoughts of suicide or hurting others."

    Predictability: that's what makes modern life civil. The predictable nature of modern life, as compared to just a few hundred years ago, is that we are quite safe. However, then, a mentally-ill person probably stuck out like a sore thumb. Now, most are medicated and can lead a semi-normal life. But, if they're off their meds, the unpredictability of their behavior is now an issue.

    These people, I don't want to own guns: I can't trust them because I can't see the world from their eyes (i.e., I don't know what it feels like to be a schizophrenic). I do know though, if I thought for one moment that I would ever harm my family because of something I didn't really have a control of, I wouldn't want guns around...but, better yet, I don't think I should be around them (if you can't be trusted with a gun, you can't be trusted with a knife, bat, club, rock either).

    What to do? There's the rub: I also don't want the govt. involved in anything, for, as we know, they also cannot be trusted. Should the background checks also include Rx data or any drug that has been known to cause psychotic/psychotropic side-effects. If you take one of those, you cannot purchase a gun?

    I don't know. I don't have an answer. But, hindsight is 20/20, and it appears as thought the last few serious shooters (at least back to the VA Tech shooting) had some sort of mental issue....even John Lennon's killer comes to mind.

    The problems are:
    • gun shows/private sellers are not going to check someone's mental history
    • guns that are not bought by the mentally deficient person (as in this case)
    • this route will end up as that you have to PROVE your mental competence before purchase
    • what is the test for incompetent or not? Is one being denied a Constitutional right for something they have yet to do
  4. chelloveck

    chelloveck Diabolus Causidicus

    It is a knotty problem with no easy answers that will satisfy everyone whichever way the issue is examined; but kudos to you for at least examining the implications surrounding the issue.
    Gator 45/70 likes this.
  5. Tikka

    Tikka Monkey+++

    From what I have been reading it is a violation of their rights to be required to take their meds.
    So time bomb walks our streets.
  6. BTPost

    BTPost Old Fart Snow Monkey Moderator

    Then pass a law that says, They MUST be ON their Meds, to possess (not OWN) a FireArm, and the Penalty for violation is 180 days in the Loony Bin, and loss of their Gun Rights..... It wouldn't stop the possessed, but it would allow you to lock a violator up, and put him on the FBI List.....
    STANGF150 and chelloveck like this.
  7. marlas1too

    marlas1too Monkey++

    the last time I checked that if a person wanted a gun and was denied for what ever reason that person will 1. steal one 2. buy one on the streets from some gang banger 3. convince someone else to get on for them -------its not where that person got the gun its how it was used in the end is all the media will show and then its the big bad gun,NRA,ect.ect.ect. you fill in the spaces--so will say it was because that OR he was an ex person was very poor that made him violent well i was very poor growing up in fla.and miss and the rich kids in my area were black--ism not violent --OR the military person was affected by war-well i was in viet nam and saw things that make me have nightmares-I'm not violent--super intelligent have violent mood swings --my IQ is above normal -I'm not violent--in my honest opinion people are lost and have no where to turn and so they take it out on others only the weak of mind and spirit will resort to guns --the strong will use guns to protect their loved ones or even a stranger from harm. in this time and space i ask which will you turn out to be ? only you can answer that sorry i get carried away at times --America is going down the drain and i can only stand bu and watch and hold my dear ones close to me and pray to the great spirit to give me the means to keep them safe
  8. HK_User

    HK_User A Productive Monkey is a Happy Monkey Site Supporter

    Sent to me by a friend.

    Topic: How Israel does it
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    [​IMG] Topic: How Israel does it
    Posted: 5 hours 18 minutes ago at 12:42
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    [​IMG] Posted: 54 minutes ago at 16:15
    I have an aquaintance that Teaches in Israel. He teachs Agriculture. He is retired Massad and has his faithful UZI with him at all times, and access to heavier weapons if needed. A certain American Derringer 9 mm still rides in a a well concealed place on his body, as does the mini UZI. Funny, but the Terrorists seem to have learned to steer clear of these schools for some reason.
    Seawolf1090, tulianr and marlas1too like this.
  9. kellory

    kellory An unemployed Jester, is nobody's fool. Banned

    I don't want anyone behind a gun, that can not take full responsibility for what they do. I have spoken out on another site, about the blind and the mentally challenged, allowed to hunt.
    i don't want to limit anyone, but the fact is, if you can not see your target, you have no business pulling a trigger. Having a spotter lime up your shot for you don't cut it, the finial responsibility lies with the shooter.
    If you have mental problems (they vary widely) that infringe upon your ability to determine right from wrong, or life and death, you have no business pulling a trigger. And how to determine who is safe, and who is not is a sliding scale that varies with the dosage of equalizing drugs that may or may not be in your system at any one time.
    We can not MAKE someone take their meds. Nor can we look inside someone's skull and see what is broken, or what will set it off. Nor do we want to infringe upon their rights. But there is a balance point that must be found.
    Problem is, weapons can not tell the mental state of their wielder, they can not refuse to do what they were made to do. Nor can your average person tell anything much about the mental state of those around them, until they snap.
    I don't have the answers. All I can suggest is watch people (watch for threat), lock up your weapons to prevent easy access, and be ready to respond if the need arises. I really can't see more laws doing any good at all. Just my humble opinion.
    tulianr likes this.
  10. VisuTrac

    VisuTrac Ваша мать носит военные ботинки Site Supporter+++

    In light of recent tragedies, people always wonder "how could we have prevented this?" The truth might be that, at least in a truly free society, you couldn't have.
    Mountainman, CATO and tulianr like this.
  11. EdD270

    EdD270 Wanderer

    "When will the gun control types figure it out?"
    They've already "figured it out". The trouble is the rest of us have not fully figured them out. The gun control types are not at all interested in stopping crime, preventing injury or death, or doing anything else to help or benefit society. The only thing they are interested in is taking away our liberty and freedoms so they can impose their will on the nation, and do away with our Constitutional republic and establish their socialist utopia. They merely use tragic incidents such as the CT school shooting to gain political advantage and further their agenda.
    marlas1too likes this.
  12. Strykar

    Strykar Monkey

    They're all out to get you and steal your freedom.

    Also, people who believe in firearm regulations eat babies.

    It's a scientific fact.
    Pax Mentis and marlas1too like this.
  13. BTPost

    BTPost Old Fart Snow Monkey Moderator

    We have a first term Dem. for a Senator... He just barely got elected, and mostly votes the party line. I sent him an eMail reminding him of this FACT, as well as reminding him that us Alaskans are the MOST Armed Red State in the nation per unit of population. I then told him, if he voted FOR ANY GUN CONTROL Legislation, I would spend my last dime, to make sure, he only served a Single Term. No feedback from him, yet. HOWEVER, in today's Juneau Empire, he published an article that where he stated that it is his opinion, that there needs to be Mental Health Reform, before any Gun Control Reform... He knows what side of the bread the butter goes on....
  14. CATO

    CATO Monkey+++

    Shooter Adam Lanza Was on Violence-Linked Anti-Psychotic Fanapt

    So, if this story is true, this kid was essentially a danger to everyone around him. Couple that with the stories about the mom being a prepper, several question come to mind:

    1. Did the mom have a gun safe
    2. Did the mom lock up guns / ammo
    3. Did the mom show the mentally-ill kid how to use guns (must have, AR's aren't intuitive)
    If these questions are met with the affirmative, I think the mom bears some responsibility here. You don't show a pyro where the matches and gasoline are.

    If she was really going to have him committed because he posed a danger to her and she couldn't control him any longer, I don't think I would've been comfortable with kitchen knives being out in the open, much less a bunch of guns. The guns should've been locked away . . . isn't this common sense?
    kellory, marlas1too and tulianr like this.
  15. kellory

    kellory An unemployed Jester, is nobody's fool. Banned

    I would bet, even if the guns were locked in a vault, the kid and all family members would know the combination. Otherwise, 1 death could mean everybody dies.
  16. CATO

    CATO Monkey+++

    Here's a good piece by Sowell:

    Invincible Ignorance — The Patriot Post

    Must every tragic mass shooting bring out the shrill ignorance of "gun control" advocates?
    The key fallacy of so-called gun control laws is that such laws do not in fact control guns. They simply disarm law-abiding citizens, while people bent on violence find firearms readily available.
    If gun control zealots had any respect for facts, they would have discovered this long ago, because there have been too many factual studies over the years to leave any serious doubt about gun control laws being not merely futile but counterproductive.
    Places and times with the strongest gun control laws have often been places and times with high murder rates. Washington, D.C., is a classic example, but just one among many.
    When it comes to the rate of gun ownership, that is higher in rural areas than in urban areas, but the murder rate is higher in urban areas. The rate of gun ownership is higher among whites than among blacks, but the murder rate is higher among blacks. For the country as a whole, hand gun ownership doubled in the late 20th century, while the murder rate went down.
    The few counter-examples offered by gun control zealots do not stand up under scrutiny. Perhaps their strongest talking point is that Britain has stronger gun control laws than the United States and lower murder rates.
    But, if you look back through history, you will find that Britain has had a lower murder rate than the United States for more than two centuries -- and, for most of that time, the British had no more stringent gun control laws than the United States. Indeed, neither country had stringent gun control for most of that time.
    In the middle of the 20th century, you could buy a shotgun in London with no questions asked. New York, which at that time had had the stringent Sullivan Law restricting gun ownership since 1911, still had several times the gun murder rate of London, as well as several times the London murder rate with other weapons.
    Neither guns nor gun control was the reason for the difference in murder rates. People were the difference.
    Yet many of the most zealous advocates of gun control laws, on both sides of the Atlantic, have also been advocates of leniency toward criminals.
    In Britain, such people have been so successful that legal gun ownership has been reduced almost to the vanishing point, while even most convicted felons in Britain are not put behind bars. The crime rate, including the rate of crimes committed with guns, is far higher in Britain now than it was back in the days when there were few restrictions on Britons buying firearms.
    In 1954, there were only a dozen armed robberies in London but, by the 1990s -- after decades of ever tightening gun ownership restrictions -- there were more than a hundred times as many armed robberies.
    Gun control zealots' choice of Britain for comparison with the United States has been wholly tendentious, not only because it ignored the history of the two countries, but also because it ignored other countries with stronger gun control laws than the United States, such as Russia, Brazil and Mexico. All of these countries have higher murder rates than the United States.
    You could compare other sets of countries and get similar results. Gun ownership has been three times as high in Switzerland as in Germany, but the Swiss have had lower murder rates. Other countries with high rates of gun ownership and low murder rates include Israel, New Zealand, and Finland.
    Guns are not the problem. People are the problem -- including people who are determined to push gun control laws, either in ignorance of the facts or in defiance of the facts.
    There is innocent ignorance and there is invincible, dogmatic and self-righteous ignorance. Every tragic mass shooting seems to bring out examples of both among gun control advocates.
    Some years back, there was a professor whose advocacy of gun control led him to produce a "study" that became so discredited that he resigned from his university. This column predicted at the time that this discredited study would continue to be cited by gun control advocates. But I had no idea that this would happen the very next week in the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals.
    STANGF150, marlas1too and tulianr like this.
  17. CATO

    CATO Monkey+++

    Talk about ivory towers....... Holy smokes . . . this guy is a flippin' genius of the Wy-lee Coyote kind.

    This is what passes for "intelligence" these days?? What a dope--completely ignores the violence of Chicago and DC.

    Amitai Etzioni: Gun-Free Homes and Communities
  18. BTPost

    BTPost Old Fart Snow Monkey Moderator

    "You First ... Idiot"... I will see how well that works for YOU and your ilk, First... then I will decide, after a couple of YEARS, if it makes sense to "Me".... NOT.... The guy MUST be a blond... DUH.....
  19. ghrit

    ghrit Ambulatory anachronism Administrator Founding Member

  20. BTPost

    BTPost Old Fart Snow Monkey Moderator

    I guess we should ASK the Dear Professor, if he would espouse the same for every School, and Home, in IsraeL, and if so, WHY? And If NOT, Why NOT?
    tulianr, VisuTrac and CATO like this.
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