Who says LEOs are unhelpful and abuse their authority?

Discussion in 'Freedom and Liberty' started by chelloveck, Sep 15, 2011.

  1. chelloveck

    chelloveck Diabolus Causidicus

    hank2222 likes this.
  2. BTPost

    BTPost Stumpy Old Fart,Deadman Walking, Snow Monkey Moderator

    couldn't happen to a nicer bunch of folks........ Just my Opinion.... YMMV....
    Falcon15, tacmotusn and hank2222 like this.
  3. Minuteman

    Minuteman Chaplain Moderator Founding Member

    While everything about these people is vile and despicable they are still American citizens and afforded the same rights as any. Including the right to say any stupid, hateful thing they want to. Being an American means I don't have to agree with what you say, I don't have to like what you say, but I will fight for your right to say it. You can not live in a country that cherishes the right to free speech but then pick and choose which speech is allowed.

    But, if what you say while exercising that right is offensive to people then you should expect to be harassed and ridiculed, reviled, even punched in the mouth. I have no problem with fellow citizens taking action to silence these creeps. Cars get blocked in, air leaks out of tires, sometimes people on motorcycles decide to ride on the street you are protesting on, repeatedly, loudly. Large trucks get parked in front of your stupid signs.

    But when an agency of the government takes it upon themselves to silence American citizens exercising their right to free speech then that is wrong, no matter how noble the cause. That cannot be tolerated in a free society. I'm sorry. You can't have freedom for some and condone the denying of it to others.

    What if these were Obama protesters and the police decided to detain them for "questioning"? Or gun rights activists protesting outside a Brady campaign meeting? Or even anti gun activists protesting outside an NRA meeting? People would be up in arms. And rightly so. Living in a free society is not easy. Sometimes we have to tolerate things that we find offensive.

    What these cops did was an abuse of power and that cannot be tolerated in a free society. They should be reprimanded. No entity of governmental power should be allowed to take it upon themselves to silence American citizens.
  4. chelloveck

    chelloveck Diabolus Causidicus

    Sometimes it's a hard call for LEOs

    When enforcing the law, particularly when there are conflicting imperatives at issue.

    On one hand, the police are charged with maintaining law an order within their jurisdiction, and where possible preventing breaches of the peace that would result in harm within the community that they are charged with protecting....on the other hand, they are expected not to infringe upon citizens fundamental rights in doing so.

    Personally, I'd have found something more important to do, than protecting some rabid god botherers from having the living sh!t beaten out of them...but...quite a few of those protesting were women and children, and it wouldn't look good to see bloodied Baptists, on national television, regardless of how loony the Westbro mob may be nor how vile, hateful and unchristian the crud is that they are shouting. The police took a pragmatic approach and invited the protesters to help them with their enquiries....once Staff Sgt Jason Rogers was decently sent off...the protesters could protest to their hearts content.

    Should the constitutional right to freedom of expression of protesters trump the right of freedom of expression of those who would honour a respected member of their community who had died in the service of their country. I would contend that morally, allowing a community to grieve in quiet dignity without being interupted by the tumult generated by a band of narrow minded sectarian bigots was the appropriate course of action under the circumstances.

    I would not suggest that it be a precedent for all places and all times...but in that place, and on that particular occasion at that particular time...good common sense prevailed.
    Avarice and tulianr like this.
  5. Minuteman

    Minuteman Chaplain Moderator Founding Member

    Thus begins the long and slippery slope that invariably leads to tyranny.
    tulianr, Guit_fishN and BTPost like this.
  6. oth47

    oth47 Monkey+

    I beg to differ..this was civilians and LEOs fighting back against the tyranny of the godless travesty of this so-called "church".
  7. Minuteman

    Minuteman Chaplain Moderator Founding Member

    The only thing we differ on is the LEOs. And even then if they acted in an unofficial capacity I would have no problem with it. It is the abuse of power, no matter how noble, right and just the cause, that can never be condoned.

    Other communities have dealt with these idiots in similar ways. In one town a construction company drove their heavy equipment back and forth in front of them, drowning out their shouts and blocking them from view of the mourners. They were refused service in the restauraunts and gas stations. These things are fine. And if the police happen to be busy and not able to come right away to move the illegally parked vehicles blocking these clowns in or parked illegally in front of them while they are protesting then hey, they have their hands full. But to use the force and power of the police to detain them for a trumped up charge is severely overstepping their authority and abusing their power.
    I agree with the sentiment but cannot condone the method.
  8. BTPost

    BTPost Stumpy Old Fart,Deadman Walking, Snow Monkey Moderator

    Chell, I do not know how the civilian LEOs in your country work, but here in the USA, ALL Civilian Law Enforcement are a Reactive Force ONLY. We do NOT allow them to act proactively, as a person is resumed Innocent, until "proven guilty" in a Court of Law, by Jury of their Peers, PERIOD. the job of Law Enforcement is to identify a Breach of the Law, Identify the Person or Persons responsible. Arresting them, and bringing them in front of the Judge for Arraignment, and prosecution. That is the TOTAL Sum of their duties, PERIOD, as far as Law Enforcement goes. Any proactive things amount to Prior Restraint and that is ILLEGAL here in the USA, PERIOD. ..... YMMV....
    Falcon15 likes this.
  9. Clyde

    Clyde Jet Set Tourer Administrator Founding Member

    So the community took this into their own hands. The .gov has no need to get involved when "peaceful protestors" are peacefully protested by members of the community.

    The hardest thing to accept about free speech is when someone free speeches in a way that one does not like. Even if these ****tards made it to the road to make their idiotic statements, what I noticed was 2,000 - 3,000 people lining the road. That is what we should take from this.
    BackwoodsmanUSA, Minuteman and BTPost like this.
  10. Falcon15

    Falcon15 Falco Peregrinus

    As an American and a Constitutionalist, no matter how hateful and vile what these vermin do is, they have rights that should not be violated. That being said, their right to speak is guaranteed. My right to just as freely shout them down, disrupt their speech, block them from sight, or drown them out is just as limitless - I would never stoop to slashing a tire. I would do it standing proud with a grin on my face. Tire stem damage, and magically appearing sugar in a gas tank, even the ol tater in the tail pipe. The former is legal, the latter is not, but the LATTER is sooooo much more satisfying.
    oth47 likes this.
  11. Sapper John

    Sapper John Analog Monkey in a Digital World

    The Westboro baptist "Church" does this for a reason, it is not about free speech or hate speech...these lowlifes do it to find an excuse to sue people,organizations, or municipalities.It is about the money,period.
    Seawolf1090 likes this.
  12. oth47

    oth47 Monkey+

    After re-reading the original,I'm forced to backtrack.Taking these people in for questioning about a non-existent crime was out of bounds. The rest I have no problem with.
    Minuteman likes this.
  13. Seawolf1090

    Seawolf1090 Retired Curmudgeonly IT Monkey Founding Member

    EXACTLY!! Many of their 'family' are lawyers specializing in these lawsuits. DON'T ever lay hands on one of them. YOU will get taken to court for assault, they will win. It ain't Justice, but it is 'legal'. More's the pity.
  14. Hispeedal2

    Hispeedal2 Nay Sayer

    Who will stand up for the rights of the families to put their loved ones in the ground? I believe there is an inherent right to privacy at such an event. I wish a court would decide the same.

    When upholding rights tramples other people's rights, who gets to decide which right gets upheld?
    Alpha Dog, STANGF150, Avarice and 3 others like this.
  15. Falcon15

    Falcon15 Falco Peregrinus

    Unfortunate for us all, the court system, Al.
  16. mysterymet

    mysterymet Monkey+++

    Yeah but to win the assault charge they have to do it in your town in front of a jury of your peers. Who do you think will win this one...
  17. Minuteman

    Minuteman Chaplain Moderator Founding Member

    The US Constitution. There is not a defined "right" to mourn. I feel for the families and I detest these morons as much as anyone but we can't start affording "rights" to any group that the constitution doesn't allow for.
    BTPost likes this.
  18. Hispeedal2

    Hispeedal2 Nay Sayer

    There also isn't a defined right to privacy... just a right against unreasonable search and seizure.

    The court found that the right to privacy was inherent in the 4th, hence why a warrant is needed from a court unless police are observing in what would be deemed public by a reasonable person (ie, no reasonable person would expect privacy in their front yard... if the cops see you smoking pot, there is no expectation of privacy there). That same expectation of privacy has been fought for many places- fenced back yards, trash on the curb, workplace locker... I don't see why my family doesn't have an expectation of privacy at a funeral. All it would take is a court decision.
  19. Minuteman

    Minuteman Chaplain Moderator Founding Member

    You have no "expectation of privacy" in a public place ie; a cemetary. Any court decree would invariably be overturned. Just as every civil litigation against these vermin has failed. As stated above they are packed with lawyers and the point here is, no matter how despicable their actions, they have the law and the Constitution on their side.

    Therefore creative obstruction is the only legal recourse left to thwart them. Beat them at their own game. They have the right to protest on a public street. You have the right to ride your Harley, drive your car or big truck up and down that street. As many times as you want. And if your muffler fell off the day before then that is a matter between you and the local police dept. but I think you would probably get off with just a warning ticket.
    Falcon15 and BTPost like this.
  20. Alpha Dog

    Alpha Dog survival of the breed

    You no these people deserve no less than taken out on a dirt road and beaten. I support peoples rights just as much as any one else but it is not their right to do families this way. That Marine gave his life for this country wheather your agree with the war or not. He was a soldier and he followed order's, he gave his life to follow those orders. He left behind a familiy who now has to make do with out him. A group like this a hundred years ago would have been hunted down and hanged for treason. As far as I could tell the officer's violated no one's right's the towing company they use was running behind, if they wanted a tow truck why didn't they call one. Plus the motel is private property the motel should have been the one's to call a tow truck and have the vehicle's moved. It's not a law enforcement function to tow vehicle's and enforce parking on private property. As for the questioning of the other's if a crime had been commited officer's has every right to detain for a reasonable time pending an investigation. During the questioning all the people had to say is I don't want to talk to you and I want a lawyer. So reading this I can't see where LEO infringed on any one's right's. Look at it like this if it was your father, mother, brother, sister, son or daughter comining home in a flag draped coffin what would you feel or do if this group showed up. (I would be going to jail) I agree people has a right to protest but we have to draw a line some where what kind of society are we to allow these low life's treat our hero's and their families like this? This is not what the constitutional right's were made to protect our foefather's figured we as American's could see what was right and what was wrong with out them having to try and list the do's and don'ts.
    BTPost likes this.
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