Why Are Americans So Angry?

Discussion in 'Freedom and Liberty' started by melbo, Jun 30, 2006.


  1. melbo

    melbo Hunter Gatherer Administrator Founding Member

    http://news.goldseek.com/RonPaul/1151687947.php

    Why Are Americans So Angry?

    Before the U.S. House of Representatives

    June 29, 2006


    I have been involved in politics for over 30 years and have never seen the American people so angry. It’s not unusual to sense a modest amount of outrage, but it seems the anger today is unusually intense and quite possibly worse than ever. It’s not easily explained, but I have some thoughts on this matter. Generally, anger and frustration among people are related to economic conditions; bread and butter issues. Yet today, according to government statistics, things are going well. We have low unemployment, low inflation, more homeowners than ever before, and abundant leisure with abundant luxuries. Even the poor have cell phones, televisions, and computers. Public school is free, and anyone can get free medical care at any emergency room in the country. Almost all taxes are paid by the top 50% of income earners. The lower 50% pay essentially no income taxes, yet general dissatisfaction and anger are commonplace. The old slogan “It’s the economy, stupid,” just doesn’t seem to explain things

    Some say it’s the war, yet we’ve lived with war throughout the 20th century. The bigger they were the more we pulled together. And the current war, by comparison, has fewer American casualties than the rest. So it can’t just be the war itself.

    People complain about corruption, but what’s new about government corruption? In the 19th century we had railroad scandals; in the 20th century we endured the Teapot Dome scandal, Watergate, Koreagate, and many others without too much anger and resentment. Yet today it seems anger is pervasive and worse than we’ve experienced in the past.

    Could it be that war, vague yet persistent economic uncertainty, corruption, and the immigration problem all contribute to the anger we feel in America? Perhaps, but it’s almost as though people aren’t exactly sure why they are so uneasy. They only know that they’ve had it and aren’t going to put up with it anymore.

    High gasoline prices make a lot of people angry, though there is little understanding of how deficits, inflation, and war in the Middle East all contribute to these higher prices.

    Generally speaking, there are two controlling forces that determine the nature of government: the people’s concern for their economic self interests; and the philosophy of those who hold positions of power and influence in any particular government. Under Soviet Communism the workers believed their economic best interests were being served, while a few dedicated theoreticians placed themselves in positions of power. Likewise, the intellectual leaders of the American Revolution were few, but rallied the colonists to risk all to overthrow a tyrannical king.

    Since there’s never a perfect understanding between these two forces, the people and the philosophical leaders, and because the motivations of the intellectual leaders vary greatly, any transition from one system of government to another is unpredictable. The communist takeover by Lenin was violent and costly; the demise of communism and the acceptance of a relatively open system in the former Soviet Union occurred in a miraculous manner. Both systems had intellectual underpinnings.

    In the United States over the last century we have witnessed the coming and going of various intellectual influences by proponents of the free market, Keynesian welfarism, varieties of socialism, and supply-side economics. In foreign policy we’ve seen a transition from the founder’s vision of non-intervention in the affairs of others to internationalism, unilateral nation building, and policing the world. We now have in place a policy, driven by determined neo-conservatives, to promote American “goodness” and democracy throughout the world by military force-- with particular emphasis on remaking the Middle East.

    We all know that ideas do have consequences. Bad ideas, even when supported naively by the people, will have bad results. Could it be the people sense, in a profound way, that the policies of recent decades are unworkable-- and thus they have instinctively lost confidence in their government leaders? This certainly happened in the final years of the Soviet system. Though not fully understood, this sense of frustration may well be the source of anger we hear expressed on a daily basis by so many.

    No matter how noble the motivations of political leaders are, when they achieve positions of power the power itself inevitably becomes their driving force. Government officials too often yield to the temptations and corrupting influences of power.

    But there are many others who are not bashful about using government power to do “good.” They truly believe they can make the economy fair through a redistributive tax and spending system; make the people moral by regulating personal behavior and choices; and remake the world in our image using armies. They argue that the use of force to achieve good is legitimate and proper for government-- always speaking of the noble goals while ignoring the inevitable failures and evils caused by coercion.

    Not only do they justify government force, they believe they have a moral obligation to do so.

    Once we concede government has this “legitimate” function and can be manipulated by a majority vote, the various special interests move in quickly. They gain control to direct government largesse for their own benefit. Too often it is corporate interests who learn how to manipulate every contract, regulation and tax policy. Likewise, promoters of the “progressive” agenda, always hostile to property rights, compete for government power through safety, health, and environmental initiatives. Both groups resort to using government power-- and abuse this power-- in an effort to serve their narrow interests. In the meantime, constitutional limits on power and its mandate to protect liberty are totally forgotten.

    Since the use of power to achieve political ends is accepted, pervasive, and ever expanding, popular support for various programs is achieved by creating fear. Sometimes the fear is concocted out of thin air, but usually it’s created by wildly exaggerating a problem or incident that does not warrant the proposed government “solution.” Often government caused the problem in the first place. The irony, of course, is that government action rarely solves any problem, but rather worsens existing problems or creates altogether new ones.

    Fear is generated to garner popular support for the proposed government action, even when some liberty has to be sacrificed. This leads to a society that is systemically driven toward fear-- fear that gives the monstrous government more and more authority and control over our lives and property.

    Fear is constantly generated by politicians to rally the support of the people.

    Environmentalists go back and forth, from warning about a coming ice age to arguing the grave dangers of global warming.

    It is said that without an economic safety net-- for everyone, from cradle to grave-- people would starve and many would become homeless.

    It is said that without government health care, the poor would not receive treatment. Medical care would be available only to the rich.

    Without government insuring pensions, all private pensions would be threatened.

    Without federal assistance, there would be no funds for public education, and the quality of our public schools would diminish-- ignoring recent history to the contrary.

    It is argued that without government surveillance of every American, even without search warrants, security cannot be achieved. The sacrifice of some liberty is required for security of our citizens, they claim.

    We are constantly told that the next terrorist attack could come at any moment. Rather than questioning why we might be attacked, this atmosphere of fear instead prompts giving up liberty and privacy. 9/11 has been conveniently used to generate the fear necessary to expand both our foreign intervention and domestic surveillance.

    Fear of nuclear power is used to assure shortages and highly expensive energy.

    In all instances where fear is generated and used to expand government control, it’s safe to say the problems behind the fears were not caused by the free market economy, or too much privacy, or excessive liberty.

    It’s easy to generate fear, fear that too often becomes excessive, unrealistic, and difficult to curb. This is important: It leads to even more demands for government action than the perpetrators of the fear actually anticipated.

    Once people look to government to alleviate their fears and make them safe, expectations exceed reality. FEMA originally had a small role, but its current mission is to centrally manage every natural disaster that befalls us. This mission was exposed as a fraud during last year’s hurricanes; incompetence and corruption are now FEMA’s legacy. This generates anger among those who have to pay the bills, and among those who didn’t receive the handouts promised to them quickly enough.

    Generating exaggerated fear to justify and promote attacks on private property is commonplace. It serves to inflame resentment between the producers in society and the so-called victims, whose demands grow exponentially.

    The economic impossibility of this system guarantees that the harder government tries to satisfy the unlimited demands, the worse the problems become. We won’t be able to pay the bills forever, and eventually our ability to borrow and print new money must end. This dependency on government will guarantee anger when the money runs out. Today we’re still able to borrow and inflate, but budgets are getting tighter and people sense serious problems lurking in the future. This fear is legitimate. No easy solution to our fiscal problems is readily apparent, and this ignites anger and apprehension.

    Disenchantment is directed at the politicians and their false promises, made in order to secure reelection and exert power that so many of them enjoy.

    It is, however, in foreign affairs that governments have most abused fear to generate support for an agenda that under normal circumstances would have been rejected. For decades our administrations have targeted one supposed “Hitler” after another to gain support for military action against a particular country. Today we have three choices termed the axis of evil: Iran, Iraq or North Korea.

    We recently witnessed how unfounded fear was generated concerning Saddam Hussein’s weapons of mass destruction to justify our first ever pre-emptive war. It is now universally known the fear was based on falsehoods. And yet the war goes on; the death and destruction continue.

    This is not a new phenomenon. General Douglas MacArthur understood the political use of fear when he made this famous statement:

    “Always there has been some terrible evil at home or some monstrous foreign power that was going to gobble us up if we did not blindly rally behind it.”

    We should be ever vigilant when we hear the fear mongers preparing us for the next military conflict our young men and women will be expected to fight. We’re being told of the great danger posed by Almadinejad in Iran and Kim Jung Il in North Korea. Even Russia and China bashing is in vogue again. And we’re still not able to trade with or travel to Cuba. A constant enemy is required to expand the state. More and more news stories blame Iran for the bad results in Iraq. Does this mean Iran is next on the hit list?

    The world is much too dangerous, we’re told, and therefore we must be prepared to fight at a moment’s notice, regardless of the cost. If the public could not be manipulated by politicians’ efforts to instill needless fear, fewer wars would be fought and far fewer lives would be lost.



    Fear and Anger over Iraq

    Though the American people are fed up for a lot of legitimate reasons, almost all polls show the mess in Iraq leads the list of why the anger is so intense.

    Short wars, with well-defined victories, are tolerated by the American people even when they are misled as to the reasons for the war. Wars entered into without a proper declaration tend to be politically motivated and not for national security reasons. These wars, by their very nature, are prolonged, costly, and usually require a new administration to finally end them. This certainly was true with the Korean and Vietnam wars. The lack of a quick military success, the loss of life and limb, and the huge economic costs of lengthy wars precipitate anger. This is overwhelmingly true when the war propaganda that stirred up illegitimate fears is exposed as a fraud. Most soon come to realize the promise of guns and butter is an illusion. They come to understand that inflation, a weak economy, and a prolonged war without real success are the reality.

    The anger over the Iraq war is multifaceted. Some are angry believing they were lied to in order to gain their support at the beginning. Others are angry that the forty billion dollars we spend every year on intelligence gathering failed to provide good information. Proponents of the war too often are unable to admit the truth. They become frustrated with the progress of the war and then turn on those wanting to change course, angrily denouncing them as unpatriotic and un-American.

    Those accused are quick to respond to the insulting charges made by those who want to fight on forever without regard to casualties. Proponents of the war do not hesitate to challenge the manhood of war critics, accusing them of wanting to cut and run. Some war supporters ducked military service themselves while others fought and died, only adding to the anger of those who have seen battle up close and now question our campaign in Iraq.

    When people see a $600 million embassy being built in Baghdad, while funding for services here in the United States is hard to obtain, they become angry. They can’t understand why the money is being spent, especially when they are told by our government that we have no intention of remaining permanently in Iraq.

    The bickering and anger will not subside soon, since victory in Iraq is not on the horizon and a change in policy is not likely either.

    The neoconservative instigators of the war are angry at everyone: at the people who want to get out of Iraq; and especially at those prosecuting the war for not bombing more aggressively, sending in more troops, and expanding the war into Iran.

    As our country becomes poorer due to the cost of the war, anger surely will escalate. Much of it will be justified.

    It seems bizarre that it’s so unthinkable to change course if the current policy is failing. Our leaders are like a physician who makes a wrong diagnosis and prescribes the wrong medicine, but because of his ego can’t tell the patient he made a mistake. Instead he hopes the patient will get better on his own. But instead of improving, the patient gets worse from the medication wrongly prescribed. This would be abhorrent behavior in medicine, but tragically it is commonplace in politics.

    If the truth is admitted, it would appear that the lives lost and the money spent have been in vain. Instead, more casualties must be sustained to prove a false premise. What a tragedy! If the truth is admitted, imagine the anger of all the families that already have suffered such a burden. That burden is softened when the families and the wounded are told their great sacrifice was worthy, and required to preserve our freedoms and our Constitution.

    But no one is allowed to ask the obvious. How have the 2,500 plus deaths, and the 18,500 wounded, made us more free? What in the world does Iraq have to do with protecting our civil liberties here at home? What national security threat prompted America’s first pre-emptive war? How does our unilateral enforcement of UN resolutions enhance our freedoms?

    These questions aren’t permitted. They are not politically correct. I agree that the truth hurts, and these questions are terribly hurtful to the families that have suffered so much. What a horrible thought it would be to find out the cause for which we fight is not quite so noble.

    I don’t believe those who hide from the truth and refuse to face the reality of the war do so deliberately. The pain is too great. Deep down, psychologically, many are incapable of admitting such a costly and emotionally damaging error. They instead become even greater and more determined supporters of the failed policy.

    I would concede that there are some-- especially the die-hard neoconservatives, who believe it is our moral duty to spread American goodness through force and remake the Middle East-- who neither suffer regrets nor are bothered by the casualties. They continue to argue for more war without remorse, as long as they themselves do not have to fight. Criticism is reserved for the wimps who want to “cut and run.”

    Due to the psychological need to persist with the failed policy, the war proponents must remain in denial of many facts staring them in the face.

    They refuse to accept that the real reason for our invasion and occupation of Iraq was not related to terrorism.

    They deny that our military is weaker as a consequence of this war.

    They won’t admit that our invasion has served the interests of Osama Bin Laden. They continue to blame our image problems around the world on a few bad apples.

    They won’t admit that our invasion has served the interests of Iran’s radical regime.

    The cost in lives lost and dollars spent is glossed over, and the deficit spirals up without concern.

    They ridicule those who point out that our relationships with our allies have been significantly damaged.

    We have provided a tremendous incentive for Russia and China, and others like Iran, to organize through the Shanghai Cooperation Organization. They entertain future challenges to our plans to dominate South East Asia, the Middle East, and all its oil.

    Radicalizing the Middle East will in the long term jeopardize Israel’s security, and increase the odds of this war spreading.

    War supporters cannot see that for every Iraqi killed, another family turns on us-- regardless of who did the killing. We are and will continue to be blamed for every wrong done in Iraq: all deaths, illness, water problems, food shortages, and electricity outages.

    As long as our political leaders persist in these denials, the war won’t end. The problem is that this is the source of the anger, because the American people are not in denial and want a change in policy.

    Policy changes in wartime are difficult, for it is almost impossible for the administration to change course since so much emotional energy has been invested in the effort. That’s why Eisenhower ended the Korean War, and not Truman. That’s why Nixon ended the Vietnam War, and not LBJ. Even in the case of Vietnam the end was too slow and costly, as more then 30,000 military deaths came after Nixon’s election in 1968. It makes a lot more sense to avoid unnecessary wars than to overcome the politics involved in stopping them once started. I personally am convinced that many of our wars could be prevented by paying stricter attention to the method whereby our troops are committed to battle. I also am convinced that when Congress does not declare war, victory is unlikely.

    The most important thing Congress can do to prevent needless and foolish wars is for every member to take seriously his or her oath to obey the Constitution. Wars should be entered into only after great deliberation and caution. Wars that are declared by Congress should reflect the support of the people, and the goal should be a quick and successful resolution.

    Our undeclared wars over the past 65 years have dragged on without precise victories. We fight to spread American values, to enforce UN resolutions, and to slay supposed Hitlers. We forget that we once spread American values by persuasion and setting an example-- not by bombs and preemptive invasions. Nowhere in the Constitution are we permitted to go to war on behalf of the United Nations at the sacrifice of our national sovereignty. We repeatedly use military force against former allies, thugs we helped empower—like Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden—even when they pose no danger to us.

    The 2002 resolution allowing the president to decide when and if to invade Iraq is an embarrassment. The Constitution authorizes only Congress to declare war. Our refusal to declare war transferred power to the president illegally, without a constitutional amendment. Congress did this with a simple resolution, passed by majority vote. This means Congress reneged on its responsibility as a separate branch of government, and should be held accountable for the bad policy in Iraq that the majority of Americans are now upset about. Congress is every bit as much at fault as the president.

    Constitutional questions aside, the American people should have demanded more answers from their government before they supported the invasion and occupation of a foreign country.

    Some of the strongest supporters of the war declare that we are a Christian nation, yet use their religious beliefs to justify the war. They claim it is our Christian duty to remake the Middle East and attack the Muslim infidels. Evidently I have been reading from a different Bible. I remember something about “Blessed are the peacemakers.”

    My beliefs aside, Christian teaching of nearly a thousand years reinforces the concept of “The Just War Theory.” This Christian theory emphasizes six criteria needed to justify Christian participation in war. Briefly the six points are as follows:

    War should be fought only in self defense;
    War should be undertaken only as a last resort;
    A decision to enter war should be made only by a legitimate authority;
    All military responses must be proportional to the threat;
    There must be a reasonable chance of success; and
    A public declaration notifying all parties concerned is required.
    The war in Iraq fails to meet almost all of these requirements. This discrepancy has generated anger and division within the Christian community.

    Some are angry because the war is being fought out of Christian duty, yet does not have uniform support from all Christians. Others are angry because they see Christianity as a religion as peace and forgiveness, not war and annihilation of enemies.

    Constitutional and moral restraints on war should be strictly followed. It is understandable when kings, dictators, and tyrants take their people into war, since it serves their selfish interests-- and those sent to fight have no say in the matter. It is more difficult to understand why democracies and democratic legislative bodies, which have a say over the issue of war, so readily submit to the executive branch of government. The determined effort of the authors of our Constitution to firmly place the power to declare war in the legislative branch has been ignored in the decades following WWII.

    Many members have confided in me that they are quite comfortable with this arrangement. They flatly do not expect, in this modern age, to formally declare war ever again. Yet no one predicts there will be fewer wars fought. It is instead assumed they will be ordered by the executive branch or the United Nations-- a rather sad commentary.

    What about the practical arguments against war, since no one seems interested in exerting constitutional or moral restraints? Why do we continue to fight prolonged, political wars when the practical results are so bad? Our undeclared wars since 1945 have been very costly, to put it mildly. We have suffered over one hundred thousand military deaths, and even more serious casualties. Tens of thousands have suffered from serious war-related illnesses. Sadly, we as a nation express essentially no concern for the millions of civilian casualties in the countries where we fought.

    The cost of war since 1945, and our military presence in over 100 countries, exceeds two trillion dollars in today’s dollars. The cost in higher taxes, debt, and persistent inflation is immeasurable. Likewise, the economic opportunities lost by diverting trillions of dollars into war is impossible to measure, but it is huge. Yet our presidents persist in picking fights with countries that pose no threat to us, refusing to participate in true diplomacy to resolve differences. Congress over the decades has never resisted the political pressures to send our troops abroad on missions that defy imagination.

    When the people object to a new adventure, the propaganda machine goes into action to make sure critics are seen as unpatriotic Americans or even traitors.

    The military-industrial complex we were warned about has been transformed into a military-media-industrial-government complex that is capable of silencing the dissenters and cheerleading for war. It’s only after years of failure that people are able to overcome the propaganda for war and pressure their representatives in Congress to stop the needless killing. Many times the economic costs of war stir people to demand an end. This time around the war might be brought to a halt by our actual inability to pay the bills due to a dollar crisis. A dollar crisis will make borrowing 2.5 billion dollars per day from foreign powers like China and Japan virtually impossible, at least at affordable interest rates.

    That’s when we will be forced to reassess the spending spree, both at home and abroad.

    The solution to this mess is not complicated; but the changes needed are nearly impossible for political reasons. Sound free market economics, sound money, and a sensible foreign policy would all result from strict adherence to the Constitution. If the people desired it, and Congress was filled with responsible members, a smooth although challenging transition could be achieved. Since this is unlikely, we can only hope that the rule of law and the goal of liberty can be reestablished without chaos.

    We must move quickly toward a more traditional American foreign policy of peace, friendship, and trade with all nations; entangling alliances with none. We must reject the notion that we can or should make the world safe for democracy. We must forget about being the world’s policeman. We should disengage from the unworkable and unforgiving task of nation building. We must reject the notion that our military should be used to protect natural resources, private investments, or serve the interest of any foreign government or the United Nations. Our military should be designed for one purpose: defending our national security. It’s time to come home now, before financial conditions or military weakness dictates it.

    The major obstacle to a sensible foreign policy is the fiction about what patriotism means. Today patriotism has come to mean blind support for the government and its policies. In earlier times patriotism meant having the willingness and courage to challenge government policies regardless of popular perceptions.

    Today we constantly hear innuendos and direct insults aimed at those who dare to challenge current foreign policy, no matter how flawed that policy may be. I would suggest it takes more courage to admit the truth, to admit mistakes, than to attack others as unpatriotic for disagreeing with the war in Iraq.

    Remember, the original American patriots challenged the abuses of King George, and wrote and carried out the Declaration of Independence.

    Yes Mr. Speaker, there is a lot of anger in this country. Much of it is justified; some of it is totally unnecessary and misdirected. The only thing that can lessen this anger is an informed public, a better understanding of economic principles, a rejection of foreign intervention, and a strict adherence to the constitutional rule of law. This will be difficult to achieve, but it’s not impossible and well worth the effort.
     
  2. ghrit

    ghrit Ambulatory anachronism Administrator Founding Member

    Ah, the balance sought is so elusive. There just ain't no way every one will be happy, and for some reason, fewer than normal are happy these days. I think what we see now is the direct result of too little thought before jumping off the bridge without checking the depth of water first. In our haste to do some good, we simply don't pay attention to the will of Mr. Murphy. We may well have selected the lesser of two evils as governmental heads, but that is only right; the alternative is too sick to contemplate. Some pups should be drowned before they grow teeth.
     
  3. Valkman

    Valkman Knifemaker Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    I don't if I was supposed to read that whole thing that was obviously written by a liberal, but I do know that with Xanax I'm pretty happy now.
     
  4. Quigley_Sharps

    Quigley_Sharps The Badministrator Administrator Founding Member

    Cause someone pissed in my Cornflakes.....fkers
     
  5. Conagher

    Conagher Dark Custom Rider Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    :lol: :D [booze]
     
  6. Seacowboys

    Seacowboys Senior Member Founding Member

    I'm about as liberal as John F. Wayne and probably a little right of Gengis Kan but I read the whole diatribe and happen to agree with most, if not all of it.
     
  7. Ardent Listener

    Ardent Listener Monkey+++

    It's weird when true conservatives and liberals are starting to say some of the same things.:eek:
     
  8. E.L.

    E.L. Moderator of Lead Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    :lol: :lol: :lol:
     
  9. fuzzy

    fuzzy Monkey+++

    hi. i don't know about you all.but i get bugged about the fact there is almost no chance for things to get better.i mean the gov's got there head's up there ass. or trying to controll everthing!the towelheads with the oil.the gimme mine state that everybody's in these days.jobs well you know the rest of it.but what really toasts my tacos is standing in front of the micowave and gripeing thats it's too slow.lol
     
  10. TailorMadeHell

    TailorMadeHell Lurking Shadow Creature

    I need a road map. I got lost after the first three paragraphs. Must be my dain bramage kicking in again. I am so bogged down in 'What can we do?' that I can't see straight. On one hand if you send out letters every five minutes to your politicians, you may get a result in 3 to 6 decades. If you rant and rave, people will call you crazy and lock you up in a nice white room. If you rant and rave to the politicians faces, you will be locked up. If you decide to commit yourself to solitude and live by your own laws, they call you anti-government and lock you up. So where does it end? Must we all just go live the middle of the ocean on a doughnut tube and that be that?

    Sometimes it is hard to keep going in the face of what you know is coming. What I see are these.... The government is no longer 'Of the people, for the people, by the people'. It is a 'Of the wealthy, for the powerful, by the corporations'. I see that we are weakening and bowing to popular opinion and the galla polls because in order to keep your sheep happy, you have to make the world happy and that way you stay in power. I see what once was an 'immigration to a better country' has become a 'let's just walk in and pollute this country'. I see drug abuse, family abuse, laziness, and bad judgment running rampant. Also, there are movements springing back up now that had almost died. Supremacists are back on the rise. Violent Militias are on the rise again. Nazis are here more than ever. Religion is becoming more fanatical. It is one thing to have your beliefs in God and try to spread that, though now it is becoming a fanatical thing where if you don't agree with them or you don't go to church at all, they just try to rip you a new one or murder you to get their point across.

    What is this country coming to? If I just pack my bags and head to a cave in the middle of nowhere to live as a hermit until my last days, I won't be alone. The IRS agents would come for taxes on my rock mattress. The FBI, CIA, ATF and other assorted suits will most assuredly follow me to make sure I'm not off my rocker planning some kind of attack or funding one. Some aryan guy would come and try to recruit me because 'jackrabbits' are not pure. Some religious fanatic would harrass me if I didn't vote against snakes having abortions as it is a blasphemy and abomination or the snake might just be gay.

    This just makes me want to pray to all that is holy that the SHTF. The bigger the better. I don't know ya'lls take on it, it is just how I see it. I'll kill it here and put my box away. Enjoy.
     
  11. Tango3

    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

    because I've got towel headed crazies wanting to cut my head off with butter knives on one hand and a government trying to criminalize every american right and freedom on the other...
    dissent and a one way trip to a navy brig with no recourse
    or decapitation???(for some body' crazy cult ideas??)
    sux...:mad:.
     
  12. ozarkgoatman

    ozarkgoatman Resident goat herder

    You are by far the first person that I have ever heard of that refers to Ron Paul as a liberal. [booze][booze][booze]

    OGM
     
  13. Blackjack

    Blackjack Monkey+++

    OGM.... a lot of people are conditioned to immediately label anything critical of the neocons as "obvious liberal trash".
     
  14. duanet

    duanet Monkey+++

    In spite of all you read and see on television, 95 % of what we now classify as liberal was only 100 years ago called clasical conservative. The big difference was that they thought freedom of religion, of thought, of building your own wealth , of staying out of wars with the rest of the world, of following the Constitution, and such was to be done by limiting government. Now we have the new conservatives who have given us a nearly 9 trillion dollar deficiet. Of that 50 % came from the 2 Bushes and still counting, and 20 % from Reagan.

    I live in New Hampshire and have been called 3 times so far for "polls on the republician canidates." They list them and include Thompson who hadn't even anounced at the time. They do not include Ron Paul and don't know what to do when I ask to have him included. At that point I guess my "views" end up in the wastebasket. So much for "primary elections." We have a chice between the republicrats and the demopublicans.

    The paper said that it now costs most people 6 years salary to buy a house. When I bought my first house in 1971 they told me I shouldn't spend more than 2 years salary. We lost 4,000 jobs in August and the unemployment numbers stay the same as they quit counting a few hundred thousand more as unemployed.

    My personal feeling is that if they grew the money supply by over 30 % in the last year including the bailouts, the debt is out of control both public and private, fuel and food prices are going up and the jobs situation sucks, then it is time to at lest try to prepare. I would love to have a self contained ranch in Montana, but in the short run I am trying to stock more beans, peanut butter, spagetti and sauce, tuna and noodles, and such. I would like to have enough for a few months of things that we eat and rotate it through. I find it really handy to go down to the basement and get something when we run out, and then stock it next time we go for groceries. It keeps it fresh too.

    At least some of my neighbors who are losing their houses are losing them because raising prices and stagenant wages have destroyed their ability to pay for the house that they could afford 4 years ago. The jobs have gone to China and they want you to work for $9.00 an hour and buy a "cheap" $250.000 house. They are very angry about it to say the least.
     
  15. ozarkgoatman

    ozarkgoatman Resident goat herder

    I believe you are right, I just don't understand that line of thinking. Personally I don't a rats arse if your liberal, neocon, or martian if you have good ideas and not just talking out your arse then I'm willing to listen. Not to say I'm going to agree with everything someone has to say but I will listen none the less. I have always believed you can learn more with your mouth shut than you can with it open.

    OGM
     
  16. DesertDawg

    DesertDawg Monkey+++

    This articulate speech, from Dr. Ron Paul, makes me wonder why he doesn't know how to "walk the walk"!

    Please correct me if I am wrong, but Ron Paul is FOR open borders! He is also FOR doing away with all government agencies that have anything to do with intelligence gathering (i.e., the FBI, CIA, NSA, Homeland Security, etc.)! He is FOR shutting down the Federal Education Bureau! He is FOR down-sizing our military forces! He is FOR closing the IRS, even though he hasn't come up with a viable alternative for collecting taxes! He is AGAINST retaliatory military strikes AND/OR pre-emptive military actions!

    This is the same Dr. Ron Paul who, when put in a tight position of answering a question posed by Chris Wallace during the last Republican debate....the same Ron Paul that began whining at several octaves higher than his normal voice as he "tried" to find something to say!

    This is the same Dr. Ron Paul who, as a TRUE Libertarion, chose to cloak himself as a Republican for "political purposes"....i.e., to get elected to Congress!

    Don't misunderstand me, for I believe that Ron Paul is a very brilliant and highly educated man, but....I'm not sure if the USA is ready for a OB/GYN to conduct "surgery" in the White House....especially with his views of having open borders! Add to that, his view of doing away with Homeland Security, since the U.S. Coast Guard is now under the control of the DHS! Open coastlines as well?

    I truly believe that it's "time" for another political party to challenge the Republicans and Democrats, but I'm not "sold" on the Libertarian platform....and definitely not on a Libertarian-turned-Republican "in name only"!
     
  17. Blackjack

    Blackjack Monkey+++

    I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I know....

    No way, no how.
    Quote from RP "The talk must stop. We must secure our borders now. A nation without secure borders is no nation at all. It makes no sense to fight terrorists abroad when our own front door is left unlocked."

    Not completely no, but getting rid of a LOT of the crap, yes. And further limiting what they can do. They have no business spying on citizens without warrants. Do you really think Homeland Security has kept us safe?


    Yes shut down the IRS, but not without alternative. He said it would have to be a gradual thing. The money the IRS steals from you doesn't go to anything but bloated gov overhead and interest on our own money (thank you fed reserve). The infrastructure needed to collect all necessary taxes is already in place.

    No.... but he is against retaliating against people who didn't commit the crime or "pre-empting" a non threat. He believes in going to war for the right reasons, getting the job done, and coming home.


    IMO, he is the ONLY ONE "walking the walk"
    He has never voted to raise taxes.
    He has never voted for an unbalanced budget.
    He has never voted for a federal restriction on gun ownership.
    He has never voted to raise congressional pay.
    He has never taken a government-paid junket.
    He has never voted to increase the power of the executive branch.
    He voted against the Patriot Act.
    He voted against regulating the Internet.
    He voted against the Iraq war.
    He does not participate in the lucrative congressional pension program.
    He returns a portion of his annual congressional office budget to the U.S. treasury every year.



    The ONLY ONE

    It sounds like you've been digesting some of the Sean Hannity propoganda machine about Ron Paul.
     
  18. ozarkgoatman

    ozarkgoatman Resident goat herder

    DesertDawg

    Blackjack pretty much covered all of your objections. To me it comes down to this. Do you what .gov to follow the Constitition or not??? The Dept. of Education is not in the Constitition, neither are most of the other deptments that the uses to restrick your freedom. You see we the people have never given our blessing to them by amending the Constitition. If we don't follow it to a T like what is happening now and for the last 100 years or so, then we would be just as well to throw the thing out and have a free for all.

    OGM

    P.S. I think that we could use someone in the White House with some surgical know how, because IMHO .gov needs to be neutered quick. [axe]
     
  19. melbo

    melbo Hunter Gatherer Administrator Founding Member

    Most of the new conservatives don't realize the Ron Paul was a major player in Reagans '76 campaign. He ran the entire stat of Texas for him and was then and still is the only Conservative, in the truest sense of the term, candidate.

    And he is going to win. He is the only GOP that can beat Hillary and some of the other Repubs need to start facing this fact. soon
     
  20. melbo

    melbo Hunter Gatherer Administrator Founding Member

     
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