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Why you should keep shooting

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Quigley_Sharps, Jun 3, 2006.

  1. Quigley_Sharps

    Quigley_Sharps The Badministrator Administrator Founding Member

    This is going to get graphic. I'm sorry if I offend anyone by publishing these pictures, but I feel it is the only way to get the message across.
  2. Quigley_Sharps

    Quigley_Sharps The Badministrator Administrator Founding Member

    I have sketchy info on this incident. It is an incident where an armed sky marshal encountered a person with an edged weapon, and the sky marshal shot the bad guy ONCE, in the K-5, with his 9mm service weapon (unknown what it was loaded with, but they use an extreme velocity, non-penetrating round like the Glaser while on duty).

    The wound to the bad guy was evidently NOT enough to deter the attack of the edged weapon assailant, and he grievously wounded the sky marshal with his weapon (see photos).

    I know what you are going to say, that if he had been carrying a .45ACP, the blade-killa would have been vaporized. That's debatable, but immaterial in any case.

    The key here is that the sky marshal fired ONE ROUND and stopped firing. He may have been trained, erroneously, to do that, but that's an article for another day. That one-shot non-stop was his error. YOU ALWAYS SHOOT TO STOP, AND YOU HAVE ONLY A SMALL CHANCE OF STOPPING A DETERMINED ASSAILANT WITH ONE HIT, NO MATTER WHAT CALIBER YOU ARE SHOOTING! Sorry for shouting.

    I once fired a police practice course with a target I haven't seen since. It was a full-silhouette target, with the usual black silhouette, but overlaying that was a red grid of sub-scoring depending on (anatomically) how vital a hit there was. The spine, only one inch wide, counted ten, certain areas in the head (brainstem, etc) counted ten, the heart was a smallish ten zone, but you would have been surprised how much of the area within the usual "K-5" zone was as low as a 3 or 4. We fired a couple of courses at these targets. The first one, we were told to just fire our usual concentration on the K-5. We did, and we got scored. With 25 rounds, my per-round average was about 3.4 That meant that with one round hit to the K-5, I would have a 34% chance of totally disabling the goblin with that round. Not healthy for me. A different mathematical formula was employed to take in 3-round groups, and my score shot up to over 70%.

    Now, we fired another course on a fresh target. This time, we were told to concentrate our fire centered & vertically in strings of 3-5 rounds (6-shot .357 revolvers). We evaluated the targets after each string. My strings went up into the 90s! I was getting 2 or 3 spine hits in each string, by thinking I was tring to shoot out the assailant's spine. This is a well-known pnenomena called "instinct-targeting", where you think of the actual microtarget you want to hit within the general mass of the silhouette in front of your sights. You think it, and you hit it. It takes a lot of practice. I actually took an instinct-targeting course from a shotgun master from Georgia once, and over the course of a day, he trained me to hit ever smaller moving targets until at the end of the day, I went to the skeet range, and broke a perfect 25 (never having broken more than 14 before).

    Instinct-targeting, combined with firing multiple rounds, will turn a 9mm or even smaller caliber weapon into a guaranteed stopper. Your goal should be to develop a double-tap, in which you hit the spine with both rounds, then a single round to the head of the then-falling goblin, in which you are microtargeting his center upper teeth. That will get you the brainstem. Most "Mozambique" technique shooters shoot for the spot between the eyes, but if you hit it, you get the outer brain, and your only damage might be that the goblin won't be able to recite poetry to you as you have destroyed his speech center. You want to destroy the comm-center of the brain, the brainstem, with your head shot. The other danger of a high head shot is that if you hit the upper skull, you risk no penetration to the brain at all, even with a .45! If the angle isn't right, your round may just deflect off the skull. By shooting the mouth, you avoid all that. It's an opening waiting for your round, sort of like Luke Skywalker when he destroyed the Death Star battle station in Star Wars 4.

    So, just to show you what a good knife-wielder can do to you, if you let him, check these out:
    image5_350. image6_681. image7_124.
  3. Quigley_Sharps

    Quigley_Sharps The Badministrator Administrator Founding Member

    Sorry, you will probably want to put that steak back in the freezer now...

    OK, summary time.

    One round, especially if it is a low-power, non-aircraft-hull pentrating round, will not stop a determined knife attacker.

    It's a known fact, derived from studying hundreds of knife attacks, that if your knife-assailant is within 21 feet of you when he begins his charge, you can probably NOT draw your weapon in time to stop him before he gets to you, WITHOUT DOING SOMETHING TO DELAY HIS CHARGE.

    I'm not an unarmed combat master (yes, you are first going to fight the guy unarmed, then draw and kill him with multiple rounds in a situation like this). I've had the training to do this series of moves, however, so I can at least tell you what I would do.

    First, I'm going to shuffle my feet into the combat stance, and then blade my body with my gun side away from the bullrushing assailant. I will assume a slight crouch, and raise my left hand to chest level, keeping an open hand (not a fist). I will have my gun hand lower, at waist level, with a karate fist, and tensed to strike.

    The assailant will get to me in 4 strides if I stand and wait, but I'm not going to. I'm going to give ground, if possible at a 45 degree angle away from his line of charge. I will take combat shuffle-steps backwards on my toes, about a foot backwards at each step, but maintaining my crouch and upper-body balance.

    Sometimes the first step of a knife-wielder's bullrush is a feint. I will watch for this, and if he stops, I will draw and begin firing with my gun. If it isn't, and he keeps coming, I will prepare to parry his first thrust with my left arm. The parry will be inside to outside, a forceful contact of my forearm upper surface with his forearm inner surface. If I'm forceful enough, I may just disarm him with the parry-strike. If I do, I will step back two steps, draw and fire my gun as he gropes for his weapon. He will be in a crouch trying to pick up his weapon, so the angles of fire are not optimum. Center of upper mass, empty the weapon, try for a head shot on the last round.

    If I don't disarm him (probably won't), I will at least have interrupted his prepared chain of knife moves, and he will recoil to reset before striking again. This is my opening, and maybe the only opening I will get. I have a decision to make: Do I strike a focussed fist blow with my gun hand, or do I shuffle back two steps and begin a draw to fire my weapon? Open targets for the fist blow would be the Adam's Apple or the underjaw or the face, depending on how it presented itself.

    If I strike the fist blow, I am committing myself to unarmed combat against an edged-weapon assailant. Risky for anyone below the 3rd Dan, it seems to me. I will go for option two, shuffle back and fire. The shuffling back is the key here, as I have to move backwards and not trip, then draw and fire while moving backwards. YOU NEED TO PRACTICE THIS IF YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE IT AS A PLAN!

    The military and some dojos teach a third option: After executing the parry, you roll the parry-arm into a grab of the knife-wrist, lock the assailant's arm straight, then strike a downward chop with the other hand to disjoint the elbow. The assailant cannot maintain the weapon and WILL drop it (unless it's a finger-hole weapon, of course). Choices of fully disabling the assailant vary from that (think K-Bar).

    I've practiced that move a few times, in fact, did so in the most recent training I've taken, about 4 years ago. I do not have confidence enough in my ability. I won't use the option. To get good enough at it, you have to have superior grip strength, better-than-average upper body strength, and lots of practice with the focussed chop blow required.

    This technique with close-in bladed-weapon assailants is designed to return tactical control of the fight to you, and give you enough time to finish the fight with your gun. It has a large leap of faith in it, and one that most carry-permitted people haven't though of, that of the REQUIREMENT to engage the close-in knife assailant with unarmed combat BEFORE trying to engage with the firearm.

    If you have time to shoot first, you MUST keep firing until you see the assailant fall, not do a "golly-gee, I shot him, why is he still charging?"

    This slashed marshal bought his own misery. He bought it with faith in his draw and his "disabling" bullet. He bought it with his ignoring of the rules of the combat he found himself in. His superiors may have paid for part of it by their stupid, politically-correct insistence on the ineffective bullets and their insistence that he shoot ONE round, then stop to evaluate. I've heard that as policy for skymarshals, but don't know for certain. If it's true, this incident should spark some change, but I'm not holding my breath.
  4. E.L.

    E.L. Moderator of Lead Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    Good info. Although I don't believe the pics weren't from a knife welding assailant on a plane. I have seen them a good while back, they have made their way around the internet. Also the Sky Marshalls don't use 9mm, they use .357 Sig in a Sig 229.


    "According to Air Force officials, the photographs are genuine, but they originated in the U.S. and were pictures used by law enforcement authorities for training purposes (possibly documenting the aftermath of a fight between inmates)."
  5. Quigley_Sharps

    Quigley_Sharps The Badministrator Administrator Founding Member

    Yea could be,my point of sharing this is, watch what can happen when someone is coming at you with a knife. I talk to some who think the damage isnt as bad as shown above.
  6. Quigley_Sharps

    Quigley_Sharps The Badministrator Administrator Founding Member

  7. monkeyman

    monkeyman Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

  8. E.L.

    E.L. Moderator of Lead Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    No doubt, it has been shown time and time again that someone with a knife can cover a short period of ground in a hurry, once they get there it is slice and dice time. Everytime I see those pics they make me cringe. They are good reminders though of the damage that can be inflicted.
  9. E.L.

    E.L. Moderator of Lead Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    You know, all it takes is one stab in the right place.
  10. monkeyman

    monkeyman Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    Dont even need a stab, a well placed inch or 2 slash with a 1 or 2 inch blade is enouph to end it all in several places on the human body.
  11. poacher

    poacher Monkey+++ Founding Member

    Years ago I had a rangemaster tell me two things which I carry to this day and believe whole heartdly.
    1. If they were good enough to shoot once their good enough to shoot a couple more times.
    2. Two the chest and one to the head makes any man forget his evil intentions.

    Take care Be safe Poacher.
  12. E.L.

    E.L. Moderator of Lead Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    I have had a couple of firearms classes from an ex-DEA agent/instructor. He always told us that we shouldn't stop until they did. He also told me once that when in front of a grand jury he was asked why he shot the perpetrator six times, and he replied "because that was all the bullets my pistol would hold. "
  13. Quigley_Sharps

    Quigley_Sharps The Badministrator Administrator Founding Member

    Amen [bow]
  14. monkeyman

    monkeyman Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    He also told me once that when in front of a grand jury he was asked why he shot the perpetrator six times, and he replied "because that was all the bullets my pistol would hold. "

    While a good point I somehow doubt that went over well let alone that it would do well for a civilians case in present climate. [gone]
  15. ghrit

    ghrit Ambulatory anachronism Administrator Founding Member

    I for one am not at all sure where this 7 yards crap started, but it seems to me that is for young folks in top shape. For my purposes 12 or 14 yards makes better sense. As it should for most. I would not have a hard time justifying shooting a goblin at 40 feet given my age and physical condition. All of us like to think we have fast reactions, as well we may if in Condition Red. Betcha most of us A) Are not in Condition Red all the time and B) are not in top physical condition, and C) don't have reaction times worth the mention. Think on it, and do what you need to do. [winkthumb]
  16. E.L.

    E.L. Moderator of Lead Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    Well, he wasn't indicted, but then again he was a LEO at the time.
  17. Tango3

    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

    Good god, knives scare me, christ just shoot me...don't open me up with a razor..
    Our only extremely close tactic was the "speed rock". shuffle back to theside, draw just to clear the holster rock the gun up crouch slightly to help get the muzzlle up , don't stop TIL the you need to reload...You don't really have time to go to full weaver until the first round or two impacts...
  18. TailorMadeHell

    TailorMadeHell Lurking Shadow Creature

    That is one messed up guy, regardless who he is. At least he can say that he wasn't attacked by a pro. He's still alive. And shooting once is stupid. That's why they let you load more ammo in the mag, so you don't have just one shot. If you don't get down, I'll put you down. That's a good motto. Striking with a razor or decent knife can do stuff like this though if you take them out before they even get in range, you won't have to worry about it.

    What is that advice they give for snakes? Stay twice the snakes body length away from it? Or something of that idea. So I wonder if this could work for people as well. Twice the person's height is the correct closest range they should attain before they are dropped. Or if you feel safer, use three times. Any thoughts?
  19. monkeyman

    monkeyman Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    The traditional wisdom on thiat was 'the 21 foot rule' or that you should never let a person with a contact wepon get with in 21 fett before responding with deadly force. More recently it has been published in law enforcment journals and other places that 21 feet is WAY to close. Basicly unless you manage to get a clean brain shot, not just in the jaw but in the brain, or a hit on the meridian line (spine) then even a heart shot will allow a chargeing attacker to cover more tha 70 feet and still inflict potentialy fatal wounds on you with a contact weapon AFTER you shoot them through the heart. Basicly they dont stop moveing untill the brain and or mussels run out of O2/blood, so you could almost say that they could potentialy last as long as you could while holding your breath (or more accurately pinching the curotic artteries) before becomeing immobile. Add to that YOUR minimum response time that is around 1 second or so (enouph time to cover 15+ feet easily at a charge) and if your weapon is not already aimed and ready at WELL past 21 feet AND you retreating/putting obsticals between you and them WHILE shooting them repeatedly, then they will most likely still get you with a contact weapon before they die if they are determined and may anyway.

    Here is a link to the article which is a very good read.
  20. Blackjack

    Blackjack Monkey+++

    I've seen that article before... very good read! I'm of the belief, shoot first, shoot fast, keep shooting until the bad guy quits moving.
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