5 phases of the active shooter: A tactical reload

kellory · Oct 19, 2015

Legion489 said: ↑

Couple flaws here.

First; most nut cases who do this are not experienced shooters. They do not sit and practice reloading their firearms for hours so they can do 1/2 second reloads, even if the nutter had a reload handy. They don't carry reloads (or other guns for that matter) anywhere where they can get at them easily. The victims make it easy for them by doing nothing to stop the nut job(s) and standing there instead of....well...anything.

Second; the victims just sit or stand there and allow themselves to be shot. Columbine, U of V, movie theater, Oregon State, etc. NONE of them rushed the attacker, either en-mass or as a single person. They all just stood there (cowered, ran around in circles, whatever) and allowed themselves to be shot. If even ONE person had provided for their own defense, even throwing a book at the shooter (What? You didn't want to make him mad when he shot and killed you?!) almost all of these shootings would have been prevented, or at the very least would have been no where as bad.

Three; in ALL cases, the police sat outside until the shooting was over. Don't expect the police to do anything until it is all over. Period. You are on your own.

Four; that .365 second response time assumes a trained and willing shooter response. Ever watched cops shoot? 99.999% of them never shoot their guns outside of mandatory training and expecting them to do anything isn't gonna happen. At my club we allow cops with duty gear to shoot free. Other than the ONE cop who shoots with us regularly (and with game gear) NONE of the cops cleared leather in less than EIGHT seconds! PERIOD! Ten to twelve seconds, or LONGER, was the norm. I practice with a carry holster and can get off six to seven (on a really good day I can get off eight) aimed rounds from the holster in under three seconds and am solidly in the middle of the shooters who shoot there.

Five: these are defense free/victim rich zones. You are not going to have a gun (or two) legally, if at all. If you try to get in with a firearm it it FAR more likely that you will be stopped and arrested than the loon. And in most cases the nut case that claims he will have a gun or two with him at these places is far loonie than the nut case that does the shooting. At least the shooter follows through while the nutter sits in his barkolounger in his mothers' basement making wild and asinine claims of what he would do or was trained to do while in fantasy-land.

Six: everyone defaults to their level of training. The nutter in his mothers' basement who makes big claims (and I have met lots of them and read more of this drivel on the net) would wet his pants and round around in a circle if confronted. I am not making that up. I actually saw it. Oh he would do this, and he would do that, he was trained to do this, he was trained to do that. As a joke we pulled one of these (here's your chance, go get 'em!) on one of these dolts and he literally dumped in his drawers, wet himself and (literally) ran around in circles. Did it the second time too when it was a semi-real but totally safe case. I expect nothing but the same from the hyper internet losers who try to make themselves look less small by making wild claims and are always attacking other from behind a keyboard with mod mommy to protect them from the big bad truth tellers when their attacks get too much.

Seven: Most of these seem to be red-flags. The black homosexual Obummer supporter doper who killed the reporter and cameraman. Look at the footage the cameraman filmed. Sure LOOKS like a set up! The movie theater shooter by passed how many theaters to go to the defense free theater? OR State? Black homosexual Obummer supporter druggie and Obummer was claiming this proves we needed more gun control as it was going on! Go look at the OKC bombing and read the Congressional Hearings. Go look it up yourself. If you are too lazy or stupid to look it up yourself I'm not going to do it for you. I'm tired of the users trying to use me to do what they should do for themselves. If they can't do that little NOW, what makes you think they will do anything LATER? Except blow smoke and attack their betters I mean.
Click to expand...

WRONG!
Weapons used during the shootings at Columbine High School
multiple weapons used, they trained for more than a month before the shootings started, they carried (4) bombs, and a backpack of ammo.
Do not assume they have no training or practice.

"HERE LIES LEGION 489, KILLED BY BAD PRECONCEPTIONS."

chimo · Oct 19, 2015

Legion489 said: ↑

Couple flaws here.

First; most nut cases who do this are not experienced shooters. They do not sit and practice reloading their firearms for hours so they can do 1/2 second reloads, even if the nutter had a reload handy. They don't carry reloads (or other guns for that matter) anywhere where they can get at them easily. The victims make it easy for them by doing nothing to stop the nut job(s) and standing there instead of....well...anything.
Click to expand...

a major flaw is underestimating your opponent due to personal prejudices and stereotypes.

Second; the victims just sit or stand there and allow themselves to be shot. Columbine, U of V, movie theater, Oregon State, etc. NONE of them rushed the attacker, either en-mass or as a single person. They all just stood there (cowered, ran around in circles, whatever) and allowed themselves to be shot. If even ONE person had provided for their own defense, even throwing a book at the shooter (What? You didn't want to make him mad when he shot and killed you?!) almost all of these shootings would have been prevented, or at the very least would have been no where as bad.
Click to expand...

Our society has been conditioning people to be sheep for decades, if not centuries. Can't expect someone who has never even been trained to fight or even to resist...but has been conditioned to run or submit...to fight back.

Dunerunner · Oct 19, 2015

chimo said: ↑

"plowing the field" tends to get bystanders shot. The 4 rules apply just as much in real situations as they do in training. My point is, if the shooter is well-trained, he/she has a plan and the muscle memory to carry out that plan, while you on the other hand are taken by surprise and have your own thought processes muddled with silly thoughts like plowing fields.

In both defensive and offensive operations, your brain and your wits are your best weapons...and without them a firearm is no better than a boat anchor.
Click to expand...

No offence, but I know the rules and by the time I engage someone; it will be just them and me.

But for those who don't know that you are responsible for every shot, thanks for bringing to light the finer points. Recently there haven't been any shooters with any plan or tactical training. They all seem to want some attention posthumously bestowed upon them or to have some other statement to make.

With few exceptions, none of the shooters were combat trained...

chimo · Oct 19, 2015

Dunerunner said: ↑

No offence, but I know the rules and by the time I engage someone; it will be just them and me.

But for those who don't know that you are responsible for every shot, thanks for bringing to light out the finer points. Recently there haven't been any shooters with any plan or tactical training. They all seem to want some attention posthumously bestowed upon them or to have some other statement to make.

With few exceptions, none of the shooters were combat trained...
Click to expand...

Lets hope it stays that way. I'm pretty sure a combat trained shooter would find a nice hide and pick off his targets from afar...including the initial first responders, like Whitman in 66 for example.

Legion489 · Oct 19, 2015

kellory said: ↑

WRONG!
Weapons used during the shootings at Columbine High School
multiple weapons used, they trained for more than a month before the shootings started, they carried (4) bombs, and a backpack of ammo.
Do not assume they have no training or practice."
Click to expand...

Let's see. I said "First, MOST nut cases who do this are not experienced shooters. They do not sit and practice reloading their firearms for hours so they can do 1/2 second reloads, even if the nutter had a reload handy." They practiced for a MONTH?! Wow, they MUST have been good practicing for a month on their own in their spare time! Obviously the US military is doing it wrong! They carried the ammo in backpacks? Does that sound handy? Not to me. I sure didn't remember any bombings there either. Sorry, still don't see anything I said being wrong.

chimo said: ↑

a major flaw is underestimating your opponent due to personal prejudices and stereotypes."

I STILL fail to see how or what I said here was wrong. In very case I listed, or Sandyhook for that matter, these were not professional hit men, military personal or had any REAL training (other than as was pointed out the Columbine shooters "practiced" on their own for a month. Which is not IMHO, "real training". I would guess most of that "training" was fantasizing and, am I allowed to say "wanking" here? wanking off over the idea of being "famous"). We are not talking trained (in ANY sense of the word) shooters here. These are/were kids or drugged up losers (or both) who had no actual training other than Rambo movies. Strapping on a bomb and walking into to a crowd doesn't need much training either. If any of these nutters had used a few bottles filled with gas they would have caused far more death and damage. Not much training needed for that either. Just because someone sat through a car safety course once and a simulator for a month does not mean they will be ready for the Indy-500.

"Our society has been conditioning people to be sheep for decades, if not centuries. Can't expect someone who has never even been trained to fight or even to resist...but has been conditioned to run or submit...to fight back.
Click to expand...

And who's fault is that? No parents trained their children? The gov't obviously WANTS victims or they would not have conditioned them to be sheeple. WHY would a parent ALLOW their child to be a sheeple? Don't they love their children? I'm guessing even demonrats (who hate America) probably care for their children, even if they teach them to be victims and set them up to die. Even a kitten, when threatened, gets ready to fight to the death for it's life. I expect no less.

kellory · Oct 19, 2015

Then you clearly did not read the provided link, legion.

chimo · Oct 19, 2015

Legion489 said: ↑

And who's fault is that? No parents trained their children? The gov't obviously WANTS victims or they would not have conditioned them to be sheeple. WHY would a parent ALLOW their child to be a sheeple? Don't they love their children? I'm guessing even demonrats (who hate America) probably care for their children, even if they teach them to be victims and set them up to die. Even a kitten, when threatened, gets ready to fight to the death for it's life. I expect no less.
Click to expand...

Fault isn't the issue, reality is. Face it, we have become a nation of mostly sheep because people are conditioned to be sheep. Don't resist, don't ask questions, don't fight back, just obey...the government (of wolves) will protect you, trust us.

we, the few, the proud, the independent, self-sufficient crowd are in the minority these days.

AxesAreBetter · Oct 19, 2015

I know what I have seen some guys do before. I have personally seen a 16 year old with no concept of "training" fire a single shot 410 like it was a full auto magazine fed.

And a month is a long time to dedicate to a specific task. It's not like bootcamp, teaching them physical endurance, skills, none of that crap. Just to load and fire? You get a DAYS training to get a Concealed Carry permit, and a fancy "School" will teach you all you need to know about "combat shooting" in a day or two. Just throwing some numbers out there.

Legion489 · Oct 19, 2015

Yeah, one had a double and shells in his pocket. The other had a pump shotgun. While rooting around for more shells in their pockets, no one did a thing to either stop the thugs or save themselves, just stood around and waited to be killed. Same with the magazines for the handguns. Socked away in their pants. Rooting around for a new mag, no one did a thing to stop them. Yeah, I get it. OK, so I agree with you, the sheeple got what they deserved. Do you feel happy now that I agree with you? OK, good. Glad to have that out of the way.

I, personally would like to go to a school that will teach me all I need to know about combat shooting in one day. Most three day classes are "familiarization" courses designed to get new shooters used to their guns or "tune ups" for regular shooters. After that most classes are a week or more of range and class room, of eight hours or more a day.

Carry permit? Well what part of "SHALL NOT INFRINGE" are you you having trouble with? How about a PhD in English to buy a paper or write a letter to the ed or post on the net? From what I have seen, most people seem to have had that one day course in spelling, punctuation and whatever was left of the day to learn about thinking before being turned loose. The gov't didn't give me my Rights, they only want to take them away. THAT is the reason for the defense free zones and wanting to disarm the sheeple, so the gov't has an EXCUSE to take my Rights and then "protect me" from the drug crazed obummer supporter killers. If the teachers or school "guard" had weapons (ie: firearms) there would have been NO school shooting at Sandyhook, OR State, VA State, Columbine, etc.

Ever wonder why there were no school shooting 30-40-50-60-70-80 years ago? Oh, that's right, there was a school shooting team and most everyone knew how to use a gun or had one in the car so they could go shooting/hunting after school and any idiots knew they would get off MAYBE one shot and would be cut down. Schools were not a defense free zone then! I carried guns into class with me and the teacher never had a case of the vapors or felt the need to call the cops. "Oh but that was then and this is now!" Yeah, liberals were looked down on back then and people were expected to not be idiots (or admitted demonrats which amounts to the same thing) and do for themselves and not be sheeple waiting for the next handout from their handler/master. My how times have changed.

Yard Dart · Oct 19, 2015

When I was in high school, if you went out to the parking lot, you found nothing but farm/ranch trucks with a rifle hanging in the rack. Nobody said a thing...... it was how we lived and what we were....... And every young person with that rifle in the rig.....could hit a gnats ass any day of the week....it was how we put food on the table thank you.
Sadly, times have indeed changed for the worse, as well all know!!!

kellory · Oct 19, 2015

I hunt. If I fire a shot or two I reload. I never shoot the gun dry, then fumble for more ammo. There is always one ready to fire. So be as clumsy as you like, when fishing for more Mags, as long as you still have one in the pipe, it doesn't matter much, does it?
The Chicago reload is simple carry more loaded guns and swap guns when you hit empty. Again, you do not have that window of time to jump a shooter.

kellory · Oct 19, 2015

If ginsu-bambi charges out of the trees and tries to take me out while I'm "unarmed" he will learn to respect "one shot, one kill".

Yard Dart · Oct 19, 2015

kellory said: ↑

I hunt. If I fire a shot or two I reload. I never shoot the gun dry, then fumble for more ammo. There is always one ready to fire. So be as clumsy as you like, when fishing for more Mags, as long as you still have one in the pipe, it doesn't matter much, does it?
The Chicago reload is simple carry more loaded guns and swap guns when you hit empty. Again, you do not have that window of time to jump a shooter.
Click to expand...

I think ultimately this falls back to training..... one shot, one kill is how I learned. Learn your weapon as any craftsman learns his tools.... and use them well for the job at hand. As a very young boy helping the family by putting food on the table....wasted ammo and blown shot's on viable game created the scowl from other family members. We were broke and spending money on ammo was not done unless required. We may have been poor, but we always had a freezer full of deer, elk antelope, pork and beef from the animals we raised, and other foods such as egg's from barter among our neighbors.

HK_User · Oct 19, 2015

Yard Dart said: ↑

I think ultimately this falls back to training..... one shot, one kill is how I learned. Learn your weapon as any craftsman learns his tools.... and use them well for the job at hand. As a very young boy helping the family by putting food on the table....wasted ammo and blown shot's on viable game created the scowl from other family members. We were broke and spending money on ammo was not done unless required. We may have been poor, but we always had a freezer full of deer, elk antelope, pork and beef from the animals we raised, and other foods such as egg's from barter among our neighbors.
Click to expand...

Same way here, if "the crew" hears a shot then they know we have fresh meat or a dead varmint.
Even then the mag or clip is topped off.

Yard Dart · Oct 19, 2015

I had an old bolt action 3 round brush gun with iron's. I clipped a deer and dad and I tracked him for miles in a big circle. At a point, we knew we were near the truck and dad and I broke off. I stayed on the trail and he went for the truck with a rendezvous planned at the top of the ridge. We swapped rifles due to his having a scope and I could take a longer shot if it came around.

I headed down the trail and at a point I found the deer bedded down in some brush. He jumped, started heading up towards the ridge and I shot him in the chest.....he kept running and I hit him in the neck....he stumbled and kept on running. I shot him again and hit him in the head and he went down. As I started off after him and at this point he was maybe a 150 yards off. When I got to within about 50 yards, he popped up again and headed up hill. I went to shoot at him again and had a nice click from the trigger.....dad had only loaded three rounds in the rifle and I had no spare ammo for his caliber, though I thought about jamming a 30-30 into a .270 to see if it would work...

The deer cleared the ridge and disappeared up at the top near the road. I hiked up the hill to the top and when I got to the fence line he was nowhere to be seen. On the other side of the road was a plowed wheat field.... so he could not be far. I cleared the fence and when he got up on the opposite side of the road out of the ditch, he started towards to opposite fence. I placed the rifle up against the fence and ran over and tackled the deer.... where I drug him back up to the road. I pulled my deer knife (dad's first hunting gift to me) and as I had one hand on the horns, I slit his throat trying to kill the tough bastard. Finally he gave in and collapsed to the ground in my lap. About then, dad pulled up in the truck freaking out.... he thought I had been rammed by the buck and was hurt.... I had blood all over me from the fight with the deer.

Lesson's learned:
Never have less than a full load in a rifle, always carry spare ammo for the type in your hand, don't take another's weapon that you are not familiar with and have no equal ammo for....and finally, keep that knife sharp.... you just never know when it may be your last line of defense.

The end: Nothing taste finer than a deer you took down with hand to hand combat.

kellory · Oct 19, 2015

Been there, done that. Spine shot a buck with a crossbow and no follow-up shot available. Had to use my knife.

AxesAreBetter · Oct 20, 2015

I pumped a buck full of .308 a couple of years back. And I have seen an armadillo take a full mag and keep on truckin. I have no concept of too much ammo or big enough bullet.

Also, before I get my back up and turn this into something, I was merely stating that you are considered COMPETENT enough after a single "training session", shall we call it, to carry the stupid things into a situation. And I did specify Concealed Carry, not some stupid carry permit, there is a major difference between the two.

chimo · Oct 20, 2015

Training classes are nice...but this notion that you can attend x hours of training and automagically become proficient with a firearm in a self-defense/combat scenario is pure horsepucky. Proficiency comes from applying what you learn in the classroom (or elsewhere) through hands-on, regular training in a wide variety of scenarios. Putting that proficiency to use requires the proper mindset. Even if you have the training and mindset, one simply doesn't know how they will perform until they actually see the beast and dance with him...but it sure increases your odds of a good outcome.

As far as carry goes...concealed or otherwise...free men don't need government permission.

AxesAreBetter · Oct 20, 2015

They do if they don't want to go to jail.

chimo · Oct 20, 2015

AxesAreBetter said: ↑

They do if they don't want to go to jail.
Click to expand...

Nope. I don't let paint dictate where I drive or ride a bike safely and I don't let silly laws determine my personal security.

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5 phases of the active shooter: A tactical reload

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