Black 13 (Pic heavy & copyright protected!)

Discussion in 'General Survival and Preparedness' started by phishi, Nov 21, 2006.


  1. phishi

    phishi Psy-Ops Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    For a while now I've been looking for a "Tac-Tool". Something that would work as a brush knife, prybar, chisel, draw knife, chopper, shovel, and general over all beater. The type of blade that could be used hard and left in the back of a truck. Something that could be paired with a hatchet and a folding saw to build whatever you might need in the woods. It would have to be light weight, under 1.5 lbs. It would need to be able to hold a good edge, yet be easy to sharpen and be rust resistant. Finally, it would need to be of high quality, but at a price I could afford.

    I searched the net, looking at different makers, both production and custom. While I found a few, all were lacking IMO. If it wasn't the cost, it was the quality. If it had three features I sought, it lacked the rest. In the end, I took pencil to paper and designed my own.

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    Bear was kind enough to make the prototypes, and one heck of a job he did! Melbo and seacowboys were present at knob creek to help give it a proper trial run, as well as 3 college age boys who helped to keep the knife in perpetual motion.

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    The knife was made of 5160 steel that was a truck's leaf spring in a former life. It is single ground at about 20 degrees IIRC. It is about 13 inches in length and weighs just over one pound. The hole at the hilt can be used to place a hex bit into for serious torque. It can be used as both a chisel and a draw knife, with the false edge on the spine allowing the chisel to function while still providing a safe place to put your hand when using as a draw knife. It is a great chopper, the edge retention being outstanding even after repeated use/abuse. It dug fairly well, again the edge maintaining its cutting ability afterwards.

    We found that it battoned well through wood, even with knots. Its spine held up to repeated hits from a log, and even stood up to being hit by the back of a gerber hatchet. (See pics below.) The butt of the knife responded in the same fashion to being hit by the hatchet. Both were to be expected, as Bear heat treated the knife to mushroom in this fashion when exposed to this treatment. Both were removed quickly in the field by a file, and are to be further touched up with sandpaper at home.

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    I am hoping to further test this design over the holidays. I want to see if the corners will break under a twisting motion. I also need to see how well of a prybar this blade is. Maybe gutting an ammo can and demolishing a cinder block as well? We'll see if I have the courage :D .

    If I can get a second round of prototypes made, I will be sending one to Iraq with an EOD officer in hopes of getting the knife tested under combat conditions. I could also see this being used by rough carpenters, plumbers, electritions, firemen, backpackers, woodsmen, ect. The uses are unlimited.

    I am looking for some feed back on the design, as well as if anyone is interested in purchase if I was to find a way to make a batch. Please bear in mind that the original prototype has already been redesigned somewhat. The hex hole at the hilt has been moved to the butt of the knife replacing one of the holes there. The hilt has been reshaped accordingly, making the cutting edge a little longer. I have toyed with G10 for scales which would replace the kydex on the original. The weight would probably be slightly heavier and I am considering a bead blasted type finish. All of course would need to fit in an affordable price range of less than 150.00, hopefully between 75-100.00.

    Thanks for looking, please let me know what you think.
    phishi
     
  2. melbo

    melbo Hunter Gatherer Administrator Founding Member

    I have in my hand the little sister...

    Great Tool! ;)
     
  3. ghrit

    ghrit Ambulatory anachronism Administrator Founding Member

    I can see it has potential, I like the concept. What about a hex on one side and square on the other? (That way, both square and hex tools can be turned.) The way it is used in the pictures sorta points to me that the last inch or two on the blade side might best be left unsharpened to possibly save a finger tip or two if mistakenly wrapped around too snugly in drawknife use.
     
  4. Clyde

    Clyde Jet Set Tourer Administrator Founding Member

    Great looking tool. Dont know if it is consistent with what you have in mind, but having one side serrated like a hand saw. Not sure if it is possible given the chissel angle design.
     
  5. phishi

    phishi Psy-Ops Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    Melbo: Thanks again for the help.

    Ghrit: The hex/square was kinda an afterthought. By moving it to the butt of the blade, I believe it will be in a better spot to work as a driver. Maybe make it a square hole so that a hex adaptor could be fitted as well as the socket? I don't know......something to consider.

    As for leaving the last few inches of the blade unsharpened, I don't find that it gets in the way of being used. This tool is sharp, I ruined a pair of jeans just by wiping off the blade on one of my pant legs, split the threads on my right thigh. Never done that with a new blade :D . My fear would be that by leaving the edge unsharpened you would be making this a less useful knife and be creating a false sense of security concerning safety. If your hand on the blade slipped to one side I fear it would result in a cut. Better perhaps to only use the top 3rd of your fingers on the spine. It keeps your thumb clear and reminds you that you don't have to apply much pressure with that hand in order to make it go.

    Clyde: I like the way you are thinking, but am not sure it would be as comfortable as a draw knife if we serrated the spine for use as a saw. I also question if it might not be asking too much of this tool to pack on more. While I have found saw designs that work in small packages (Spyderco serrations, Gerber multitool, ect.), they never seem up to some of the tasks I need them for. This tool is great for the primary uses it was designed for (chisel, chopper, draw knife). I fear that by asking more of it we would be reaching a point of diminished return.

    phishi
     
  6. monkeyman

    monkeyman Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    Looks like it dose what you wanted it to. I like the idea of the hex and square holes to use as a bit driver. While it would be hard to have a point and still maintain it ability to be used as a chisle I personaly like to hace a point to a blade that can pierce even if it is not the best for that, maybe like haveing the front angled just a bit so it could do both but then you end up doing neither all that well. I guess would just need another blade (that could be considerably smaller and lighter since this one dose the grunt work) for things needing a point and or a curved blade like skinning an animal or pierceing through stuff.
     
  7. ghrit

    ghrit Ambulatory anachronism Administrator Founding Member

    Waiting on the prybar report. Pending that, I fear for the chisel edge in that use. All said and done, monkeyman has a point: I don't think your intent was for a standalone cutting tool. It looks to be a working device that will not replace a more conventional (and smaller) knife.;)
     
  8. monkeyman

    monkeyman Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    Waiting on the pry bar report. Pending that, I fear for the chisel edge in that use. All said and done, monkeyman has a point: I don't think your intent was for a standalone cutting tool. It looks to be a working device that will not replace a more conventional (and smaller) knife.;)

    It would be a GREAT addition though to broaden the jobs that could be done a lot without having to add several tools.
     
  9. JC Refuge

    JC Refuge Crisis Preparedness Provider Vendor

    I think you're on to something here, Phishi. I'd love to be able to help you get 'em on the market--selling them in my online stores, etc.
     
  10. 91G-Dub

    91G-Dub Monkey+++

    Now that's what I call a "Knife"

    Looks like it would be very good to have in a lot of situations.
     
  11. phishi

    phishi Psy-Ops Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    Sorry I have not replied sooner, this was a rough week in school.

    MM: This design is pretty specific in what it does. Food prep was not one of the tasks considered. Having a second blade that is smaller and possibly dedicated to food (skinning, slicing, diceing) would be a better option IMO. If you felt that this was going to be carried on your hip, the sheath is big enough that you could zip tie a smaller blade to it thus taking up less space on your belt.

    Ghrit: I'm having trouble understanding your idea. What do you mean by 3/8" key stock? Is it to hold the sockets? Copuld you draw me a picture? Sorry, I'm more visual, and I can't picture this, although I am interested in how it might work. I like how you think.......keep it coming.

    JC Refuge: I am intrigued by the offer, but due to school, am not at the production stage...... yet. Let me get my ducks in a row and I'll approach you when I feel that I am ready to bring this on line. If you have any suggestions, please feel free to PM me. It may take awhile for me to respond, but I will get back to you as soon as I can.

    91G-Dub: Thanks for the compliment.

    Thanks also to all who have looked, please keep the coments, suggestions, ideas for improvement coming.

    phishi
     
  12. JC Refuge

    JC Refuge Crisis Preparedness Provider Vendor

    No hurry on my end, phishi. Just let me know when you decide you have a few (or even one) you want to sell. We don't need a bunch in stock to see what we can get for them.
     
  13. ghrit

    ghrit Ambulatory anachronism Administrator Founding Member

    Ghrit: I'm having trouble understanding your idea. What do you mean by 3/8" key stock? Is it to hold the sockets? Copuld you draw me a picture? Sorry, I'm more visual, and I can't picture this, although I am interested in how it might work.

    For use with sockets, yes. Imagine a square hole thru the handle with a bit of square key stock stuck thru that you can use as a socket driver. 3/8 or 1/2 drive, whatever you might need for the tools you have with you. Won't ratchet, of course, but if there is space, you can take 90 degree bites.
     
  14. phishi

    phishi Psy-Ops Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    Image getting clearer. Not sure how to attach it to the blade.....would change the lines somewhat........maybe for another project? Its a good thought. Let me chew on this for awhile. Thanks for the explaination.

    phishi
     
  15. ghrit

    ghrit Ambulatory anachronism Administrator Founding Member

    I think I would insert the key stock thru a snug square hole, let it protrude on both sides and either weld it in, or upset the handle around the key to hold it in place. Not in the blade itself, but maybe near the butt end of the handle. (If only I could sketch it, the idea might be a bit more obvious. Hm. Maybe I can, then scan it in. Might try that later tonight.)
     
  16. TailorMadeHell

    TailorMadeHell Lurking Shadow Creature

    Looks good to me. Although, I'd buy one just for the sheer enjoyment of having it. It doesn't even have to be fully functioning. A blade and a handle is all I need. Haha. Good work. Let me know when they become available.
     
  17. Seacowboys

    Seacowboys Senior Member Founding Member

    Phishi, my divers really like the tool and could see some creative applications for it underwater in the salvage environment.
     
  18. poacher

    poacher Monkey+++ Founding Member

    I've got to admit I shy away from pretty much everything labeled "survival knife" but this one has me hooked. I'd be intrested in getting the larger one. The thing that I like the most about it is that you aren't trying to get everything on this knife. This knife is designed to do some basic tasks and do them well. If you want to skin somthing bring another knife.
    Bear is to be commended as well on the craftsmanship. Outstanding Gents. You guys did very well. Let me know when you start taking orders.

    Take care Be safe Poacher.
     
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