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can you survive alone or can you deal with a group

Discussion in 'General Survival and Preparedness' started by hank2222, May 12, 2011.

  1. hank2222

    hank2222 Monkey++

    Is it better to make plans to survive alone or as with a group ..the problem inside a groups that i dealt with it has been in fighting over some of the basic ideas of how and where the group is going in the future ..

    as part of my basic plan is be alone with my family members to a point and i found that the two groups i have been around it had a infighting about things that i thought was stupid in the first place ..

    As my family group broke up over two people did not think that beening totally off grid by 2011 was good thing and why spend the money to upgrade the houses and cabin in the farm as we where going to set it up as he base of operations for the whole group .. the whole time was like dealing with problems of them not putting fourth the effort to make the group as good as it could be

    so i have allways had a plan to go it alone along with a small group of friends and family in the area i was in at ..
  2. BTPost

    BTPost Old Fart Snow Monkey Moderator

    Group Dynamics is ALWAYS a question that gets in the way of reliable progress, in any group. There are two basic types of Groups that mostly work.
    1. The Strong Leader Group. A group based around a strong Leader/Father figure, who provides the direction and basis for the group to progress. He makes the Rules, and if members do not like his edicts, they are free to leave.
    2. The Strong Ideology Group. A group based around a Founding Ideology, that is set out in a basic Founding Document. These groups are much harder to form, but ultimately tend to outlast the other type, because the Founding Document, will outlast the Strong Leader.

    There are plenty of examples of both types of groups. Many groups started out as one, and morphed into the other. Take the United States as an example of the second type. Most cults are of the first type. I like to use the Mormon Church as an example of a morphed Group. They started out in a Type 1 group, but the Strong Leader/Father figure transformed the group to a Type 2 group, where the religion became the Founding Document. Then when the Strong Leader/Father figure died, there was a Governing Body in place, guided by the Founding Document, to carry on the structure of the group. I would point to the Islamic Religion as an example of a double Morphed Group. Started by the Prophet Mohammed. He set the Founding Document, and provided a Governing Structure, to take over at his death. Now each Inman runs his own Outfit, as a Strong Leader/Father Figure/Teacher based on his specific interpretation of the Founding Document.

    The basic Patriarchal led Family, is a Type 1 Group, and if there is a Founding Document or Ideology that sets out how the leadership passes from one generation to the next, these can morph into Type 2 Groups. Most Type 1 groups need to be small, to that the Strong Leader/Father figure, can control the group effectively. Larger Groups need to be Type 2 groups, where the Governing Body, can morph along with the size of the group, and provide the control and structure for the group.

    Oh I better stop now. My Brain hurts, after thinking about this so hard. My opinion.... YMMV.....
    VisuTrac and hank2222 like this.
  3. hank2222

    hank2222 Monkey++

    The basic problem was the orignal members of the group was not the problem it was the people who came in at the end or married into the group became the problems we had for everyone going our own ways ..

    we had the biggest fights over spending the money to upgrade the house and cabines and other small liveing quaters on the farm in Tx over makeing them total solar and wind powered with no outside need for power or heat or cooling need ..

    Every home was to be upgrade by 2011 and no longer needing outside power to run them ..that where the fighting started over the fact that some of the people had to spend money that they where just sitting on and not doing what need to be done ..

    Also fighting over them not buying the supplies they need to have stored as a member of the group..
  4. Falcon15

    Falcon15 Falco Peregrinus

    Is it possible, within the group, to come to a middle ground? Here is a good example:

    In my group we have what we call active and non-active members. Our active members participate fully, bringing to bear all of their efforts to the full prepping ideal - storing food, gear (other than the basic weapons and personal things), donation of land (incuding storage of the other preppers gear/food), planting and tending gardens, raising livestock, etc., running drills and getting trained in the basic skills like soap making, canning etc.

    The idea being that this is the base - the foundation of the group.

    The non-active store their things, acquire what the individual member/family needs - or assists in the construction of items like water collection systems, and hone specialized skills - like medical skills (our Doc is a very busy person and cannot always participate in classes now, but can be trained post SHTF). These people have an open invitation to join us if the whole ball of wax goes south, but will earn their keep equally, they all know and understand this.

    Since the non-active members are not part of the planning process or the in-place prepping, they will have to integrate into the group quickly. This is not much of a problem, as they are all former military or current LEOs and Texas Guard members. In fact the only person without former military tenure is my wife, but she was an Army brat and has a distinct advantage to having grown up under tight discipline.

    As for the non-active members go, why should they benefit from the active members current dedication and work? Simple. They bring to the table something that all of the other preppers do not have. Professionally practiced and honed skills. Medical, construction and fabrication, security and enforcement.

    Ours is a group of the second type. We have a foundational document and an ideology. We will be bringing neighbors aboard slowly in a post SHTF scenario using "winning the hearts and minds" techniques favored by the military. In fact tonight we will be covering that in the weekly meeting of our active members.

    Still, in a break down of the rule of law, there will be a period of adjustment as the society as we know it ends. During this transition the current non-active members will have a period of time to start learning new skills and integrating into the group.

    We have a location we call our "Alamo" - our gathering point/mini-fortress. This is the base where we will gather post SHTF. It is an established place with food growing every year, livestock in place, and a majority of the stored gear/goods. The non-actives will bring what they can when the SHTF, and no matter what, even if they only bring enough food for three (3) days, they will be fed, as long as they work. This is very well understood and agreed upon.

    It takes a village. You can only stand watch so many hours before stress and fatigue set in. You have to maintain the food production, because in our case the stored food will only get eaten if we have a bad crop year or something happens to the livestock, and only until we can start eating what we grow/raise.

    Well, those things being said, YMMV and people are people. They have falling outs. Just remember your OPSEC. Those who have had falling outs with you in the past know where you will be and what kind of stuff you will have.

    That is all I have right now. Prepare for the worst, pray for the best.
    chelloveck and hank2222 like this.
  5. snowbyrd

    snowbyrd Latet anguis in herba

    Gee, H2222, I thought you were going to hide in a hole with a garden on top?
    Group dynamics are a pain in the glutius maximus. A loose knit group works for us, yes, a collective 'WE'. Do we pool money or resourses? not really, skills yes. Store 'stuff' for each other yeppers.
    Call on each other before TSHTF, yes.
    Loose knit but dependable people make up the 'group'.
    Are there some that think they are one of 'us'? yes
    Are they welcome post SHTF? no
    Hmm brings up some interesting questions doesn't it?
    How to 'turn' them away is one.
    hank2222 likes this.
  6. Falcon15

    Falcon15 Falco Peregrinus

    If you feel they are not welcome post SHTF:
    Be charitable, but firm - as a group. Give any basic need to the individual(s) you can spare. Be very clear "If you come back you will be turned away". Wish them luck. Send them on the way. If they get angered or belligerent and begin going for a gun, use your universal translator (see my last signature line). If they leave quietly, double your watch for a week or two. Remember, these folks have at least a basic understanding of your operation.

    If you are seriously short handed then it would be a group decision to bring them in. The one rule we have - no exceptions - if you do not work, you do not eat.

    If you bring them in and they are a trouble maker, or lazy, or sleep on a watch...banishment always worked in the olden days...
    Just my humble opinion, YMMV, your circumstances are definitely different than mine.
  7. Seacowboys

    Seacowboys Senior Member Founding Member

    I tend to go back to the old Pirate adage "Two men may keep a secret if one of them are dead". That having been said, I have a small group that is basically a co-op to grow and accesss supplies though there is no communal ownership. I raise rabbits, produce, and fish, another raises cattle and chickens and fruit, another raises produce, fish and alligators, several of us reload a variety of ammunition and share components, dies, bullet molds and labor. We swap butter and eggs for bunny sausage and gator tail, maybe a few baskets of shrimps, a bushel of tomatoes and a bag of oysters. We discuss emergency planning and relocation and have several short-term options but ultimately, we exist as a community within a community.
    Falcon15 likes this.
  8. MsDawn

    MsDawn Monkey+


    I think going it alone would be very hard. We have 6 acres and are slowly becoming self suffienct and bringing in a few folks to live with us. I believe a group needs one strong leader to work. And those that don't like it, can leave. This is just my opinion.
    Falcon15 likes this.
  9. TXKajun

    TXKajun Monkey++

    Sheesh, we can't even get enough interest for a CERT group here in town. No, let me say it even worse than that.......we can't even get the Red Cross to hold basic first aid and CPR classes in our town. They say there isn't enough interest. Groan!!!

    I keep my eyes open when grocery shopping and have yet, in 7 years, to see any sign of anyone actually getting enough to put away a little extra, anyone who is couponing big time, or even anyone who is buying canning supplies. It's gotta be happening (I think, hope), but whoever is doing it is either way under my radar, which is where I hope I am for everyone else, or our shopping schedules haven't coincided yet. If I ask any of our acquaintances any leading questions, like "Well, it kinda looks gloomy for the economy for the next few years." or "Man, the world is going nutz! All that unrest in the middle east, the earthquake and tsunami in Japan and here at home, all the silliness with the unions vs the states." the only answers I get are "Yeah, but how bout this year's Mets?" or "Aw, that's happening other places. We don't have anything to worry about."

    Needless to say, my family is planning to go it alone unless/until we can meet some local like-minded folks. We're gonna go for "invisible" if we can, taking whatever aid is offered and being grateful, watching our place for any "untoward" signs like lights at night, sound of generator, cooking smells, etc.

    It'd be nice to find others, but reading the posts above, it's doesn't look like it'd be an easy deed to get hooked up and stay in a coherent group even if there are others out there.

  10. Falcon15

    Falcon15 Falco Peregrinus

    TX Cajun:
    Have you tried networking groups? I met most of the folks in my group through one contact from a networking group. Just remember OPSEC and you should do fine. Trust is earned, not given.
  11. TXKajun

    TXKajun Monkey++

    Falcon, I've done a bit of online monitoring, but have yet to find anyone in our neck of the desert, so to speak. I've had one query to meet, but after an email or 2, declined. Just didn't have that "spark" if ya know what I mean. Tried attending an Appleseed or 2 in town, but again, most of the interest was in shooting/hunting skills as far as I could tell

    I've got some experience in OPSEC from my prospecting time. Some valuable lessons learned there, for darn sure! I'm getting real cautious in my old age. :rolleyes: LOL

    Thanks for the response. We're still keeping our eyes and ears open.

  12. hank2222

    hank2222 Monkey++

    my first group broke apart over the older members not getting long with the younger childern better half's because of them not wanting to spend money on the projects that need to be done in the place over the years ..

    this groups i with now is basic group of people that have know each other now for 20 years and we had group meeting to bring in people who meet the rules that we want in our group ..

    the problem i'm a problem allready with one of the new members over something that was said about me ..

    one of the members is a local rancher and i have allways helped each other when i can .he also knows that i have a problem sitting on a horse for a long time over haveing a surgery on my back neck and shoulder and never gone back to 100 percent like it was before the fall i had on a job ..

    so he knows that it hard as heck some days to move around and the newer member made a commet to him over me sitting on the truck bed .

    So my buddy had us help him move the herd to the newer pasture and we going to work on some the cattle with shots and other things we had to do ..by the time i got to the pasture i was in major pain from rideing the short distance about 3 miles of rideing a horse and pushing the cattle in drag prostion of the drive ..

    my back and neck had by the time i was in the other pasture had basically become so bad that i could barely walk without beening in pain ..so my friend goes go sit on the truck gate and set up up the shots and other things for him ..

    the guys was asking him as why i had just set there and not really helped them out in the pasture ..My buddy goes if had not notice it he was in alot of pain as he got off the horse in the pasture and i had to hang onto the saddle horn to not to fall to the ground as my knees where about buckle from the pain..

    my bud walked around the horse and saw me hanging on to the saddle horn and got a little mad over the fact that i was trying to hide it from him and the other person there .

    so my bud said to sit on the tailgate and fix up the shots as we need and get the ear tag ready and log in the book for him

    as i have explained to the newer members of the group i can no longer do hard labor of any type without haveing major problems with my back and neck and shoulder ..

    as one person has made a comment that i look healthy enough that i b.s everyone about the not beening able to do hard labor and i was just lazy and not wanting to work ..

    but as few of the older timers they know that i had problems and they know that in the long run alot of the socalled hard work around the places i'm not going to be able to do ..

    so i have allways thought in the back of my head about if i had go solo on the place if i need to
  13. Tikka

    Tikka Monkey+++

    IMO, to be prepared you must. As no one can predict what will happen or its after effects; to focus on any one thing has the potential to be the wrong thing.
    hank2222 likes this.
  14. thebastidge

    thebastidge Monkey+

    One thing I think is key to getting a group to agree on a strategy for a bugout location is that it cannot be all nebulous, future benefit. There has to be some current, on-going benefit to act as an incentive.

    So I think the best way is to have some kind of commercial venture that people have partial ownership in- as in investing, not being given. That way they can see a return on investment in strict financial terms, even if it is simply building equity in a business or property over a long term.

    With my family, I have my surplus shop, and I pay them to work in it. I also plan afamily retreat and my mom will have a place to retire there. My family will have a private retreat for weekends and summers, and may even have their own homes built there for part or full time occupation.

    Those who invest, have something tangible to show for it.
  15. content

    content On Hiatus Banned

    unless your kids are very young and you are a most unusual father, you will even have trouble with them. The other people, forget it, your worst enemies will be inside the "castle" with you. Just waiting to poison you, stab you in the back, etc, and take over the running of the group.
  16. Falcon15

    Falcon15 Falco Peregrinus

    With all due respect, stick to comments that you have actual real-life experience with. Based on your below comment from another thread, you are single, under 30 and live in a van. Since you do not have children, you cannot speak with authority, nor can you state with absolute authority that other people's children will be a threat. Nice try, [troll].

    Gray Wolf, hank2222 and BTPost like this.
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