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CO-OP land purchases and such...

Discussion in 'General Survival and Preparedness' started by dragonfly, Nov 22, 2011.

  1. dragonfly

    dragonfly Monkey+++

    ( This may/may not be in the right category?)

    I have rec'd a few emails about some horror stories about land and partnerships, etc. Seems that a few people either were "invited" to or were brought to, a piece of land that someone's grandmother owned, and when she died, she willed it (1/2) to one of her family members...there's the trouble! Who owns what, and the family feud starts. The innocent are not family, only there by invitation, and they'll lose a lot in the end. Many states laws have a clause whereas: if you put anything on someone elses' land, they now own it...That includes all structures, fences, and gardens, farms, orchards, even cattle, and most animals ( exception so far has been only horses, in some, but NOT all states) and the list is seemingly endless....They (the invitees) had NO idea of what the status of the land deed or title was in, and in the end they got burned....They had put up buildings, dug wells, and planted and had huge working farms... NOT anymore they Don't! And then, the family discovers that the taxes were not paid for nearly 10 years, and the penalties and interest fees are far more than the land is valued at....FAR more than it's value, like 5 1/2 times! The county seizes the land and the state now takes the land and everyone loses!
    Hmmmm...Ya gotta be very very careful about these things!

    Then, there's the other side of that coin...what we call CON'S...
    ( as in artists)
    People are invited in and even given false paperwork, stating they have all kinds of rights, etc., to stay as long as they desire, with no need of rental or lease papers, or any taxes...or fees, of any kind. ( this has only been applied to land so far)
    ( if it sounds to good to be true...!)
    Well 3-6 months down the road, here comes along the LEGAL owner of said land...He is irate and has the "squatters" evicted....all legal and proper, court ordered and so on and so forth. Then, it starts all over again...with brand new people, and no one is the wiser!
    ( I think I smell a crooked Sheriff and Judge here!) They have a front man to play the part and get people to move in and set up all over again...They too get evicted and lose everything...!
    All too familiar!

    Now for the really bad stuff ( like those weren't bad enough?)
    There are a few people that have formed "groups" and such, that decided to go out find and buy land...a sort of "CO-OP". A Great idea! ?
    Who is the title going to ?
    Whose names are on it, who is responsible for any and all permits, and taxes etc.??? Look out sports fans! It's a bad time a comin'....If you "invested" in one of these, you had better consult a lawyer/attorney. ( Now I have to go and wash out my mouth, sorry for the 2 nasty words!)
    BUT, You need to know about the law of the state in which you do this and NEVER trust anyone!
    In the end, the result is nearly always the same...
    An agrument/disagreement goes on unresolved and then the lawsuits start to fly. Not easy to resolve even legally, unless your name is first on the land title! Being the second one, is a no win scenario on land titles!
    Only the attorneys win! $$$
    What makes it worse, ( yeah, it gets that way!) A man is one of the "principals" on the land title, but he dies. His share is passed on to his son... ( by will ) BUT no one ever bothers to change the paperwork legally...The land is sold by one of the original principals or by their willed children, without the others knowledge...Now we are talking SERIOUS money going down the drain, just to straighten this mess out...
    One will versus another, versus the original purchase agreement/partnership, versus the tax assessors office, and the county, and state, and so on and...... yikes! IF it goes into PROBATE, it's OVER!
    Makes your head spin!

    Some people are actually 'gullible enough' to allow one of their "group" members to place everything in their name alone, and no one elses'. Now today, This is being done more and more, some say, to promote OPSEC, as some people involved owe money to the IRS, and even child support, etc., and do not want to be known to own anything...Particularly land!
    Ok ,so be it...BUT, you know what is about to happen right?
    The sole owner dies! Holy crap! Now what do they do?
    Well,... there's an old saying about wishing in one hand and crapping in the the other, and see which one gets filled first!
    But then some are "saved" when there are family/survivors, but then they get to fighting over the ownership, and it goes into probate, and then the state gets a piece of the ACTION, and of course the FEDS do too!
    Now where does that leave those that invested?
    SCREWED! No way on this earth to get anything out of that mess, except maybe paying fees on it all!

    So you know this GUY that says he has land, 40 acres...BUT you suspect all is not peachy. Actually, there is nothing in his name according to the tax assessors office and the county. Hmmmm....But he swears he is co-owner of said land..UH OH! Here we go again.
    Now I have seen this one first hand and he actually called on me the other day for help! He's in a real bind now....
    Yes he is a co-owner...BUT his name never appeared on any paperwork but a notarized agreement...Between his girlfriend's mother and himself. ( here it comes...!) "They" break up...! Now personally, I'd be a tad bit concerned, but then, He goes off and gets MARRIED! Uh Oh!
    Yup, now we are looking at UGLY!
    BUT, unknowingly, the mother is a reasonable and honest woman and holds up to her end of the bargain...Who Knew it could happen today?
    So, he has his land, 20 acres...Well sort of: "has his land...."
    BUT there are a few minor problems...
    1) No parcel division as of yet, that has to go thru the county to get permits to do so, and the land has to be surveyed, prior to any such divison...That's $600 alone for the survey! 2) Then the survey report has to be sent with a request to divide the parcel into 2 parcels...BUT those parcels were sold to NOT be divided, and only remain as 40 acre parcels for ranches etc. now that requires a land attorney and a slow and expensive process to get a "variance"...3) He also will need a second survey, AFTER the variance is approved ( IF) and that's another $600!
    4) Now a county inspector has to be sent out, AFTER he applies for the inspection for variance...It's too much for me...
    And in the meantime, the taxes keep running! On all 40 acres....Now I don't know and did not even want to ask if the taxes were kept up to date....

    Now, for the REALLY FUN stuff!
    Depending on where you live...you have to be VERY careful...IF and WHEN you EVER do "invite" someone to SHARE or MOVE onto your land...Be sure to check out ALL the laws of the state you are in, as well as the state they may be coming from....One little misreading of those laws, and you are "eligible" for a fraud and/or relocation cost lawsuit. If for any reason anything at all goes sideways on you and your new found friend, you could lose your ranch, not to mention your butt! Some laws state that if you give an OPEN invitation to someone to move to your land, that can be ( and will be) construed as "in perpetuity"! Read: FOREVER and EVER! No recourse whatsoever. You are in it deep now buddy! AND, If this newly "acquired" friend does anything illegal on your land, say growing some sorts of illegal plants, brewing shine, or manufacturing some chemicals considered to be illegal...you are the ultimate responsible party and your land and everything on it, can and more than likely will be forfeit. (This also includes any of his FRIENDS too!) Oh Joy!
    Read: "CONFISCATED", by the authorities! City, county state and federal agencies all will be sharing the process of hanging your skin out to dry... AFTER they seize everything you have, even your savings and checking accounts! Cars, homes, boats, you name it, it's GONE!
    Along with your name and reputation!

    Now, here in Arizona for instance, getting an invited "guest" out of your home or off your property is not so easily accomplished! Just see how they treat an "unwanted guest", when they are NOT married, as in only boy and girl friends! The person making the complaint is considered to be the "TURD IN THE POOL" nowadays! You, the person wanting another to leave, are far better off to just pack your bags and leave! If it's your house, you should have known better! Just ask any local judge! I know a couple that split but they were in an apartment..,.seems it was ok...BUT they both had their names on the lease and when one left, the other could not pay the rents...They both were sued! Good bye credit and ability NOW to ever rent another place!

    Remember the "good old days", when you could evict someone in as little as 3-7-10 days? Today,.. it can take 90-180 days at the least! BUT, ( you'll love this part!) ONLY, if they are 'renters' or have a 'lease' which they have broken, and you'll have to have witnesses to that!
    Good luck! So a word to the wise: Do NOT ever ALLOW people you do not know "enough" to TRUST, to move in to your home or on your land, at anytime, for any reason/s...
    Paperwork is a MUST and it has to be worded very carefully to protect BOTH parties, or, here in AZ, it can be challenged as an "unconscionable tort/act" which is defined as an act that the state does not allow, wherein it deprives any party, of any rights, at anytime. That in layman's terms means: you have to give, to get! You cannot, in any way shape or form, write into any legal document, anything that could be construed as denying anyone anything that you yourself, are not willing to give up...AND you are NOT allowed to do that. Under state statues, You can't sign it and you can't even have it notarized, or if you do, you are in deep doo doo, as now the state becomes the INJURED party, and you, well... you get your thingy in the wringer! Ta da!

    Now, On another note of legality and the ramifications of DOING IT ALL WRONG:
    Now, I have Seen that done before too! A certain individual here tried to get another person (me) to sign an "agreement" as a "hold harmless", legal document, wherein one party was to agree to:
    NEVER ever, to the end of time, "perpetuity", (again), ever try to collect, or sue, or take any legal action/s ever, for any reason, for any fault, or actions taken by the one person, upon the other.
    He lost his rear end!
    The judge threw the whole damned bookshelf at that idiot. I don't know what the fines were, but the 180 days in jail ruined his business, and then he lost his realtor's license. Got 2 city projects shut down by the city inspectors. Then there were all of those other fines for state and county and city environmental violations...The fire department violations, and then there was some 6- $10,000 fines imposed for the illegal immigrants, and then more fines for having them working in a hazarous environment...
    No state compensation funds having ever been paid, and never paying any taxes ( all under the table employees...) and he made OPEN ended threats in front of another person and the judge! ( yup, he's a NUT!)
    While all of this was taking place, along comes another employee that was delivering trailers to the state of Texas....Well he lied under oath to the judge and was back in front of the same judge, one day later....The delivery driver had no drivers license, as it was revoked for DUI, and had been ticketed a number of times since, and was the deliveryman for the company...Well, the idiot driver had "lost" a load of several trailers on the highway someplace in Texas, causing several accidents and wrecks in the process, then drove off! The trailers were traced right back to the company...Now it's pretty bad right? I mean what else could possibly go wrong for this "poor" schmuck?
    Well, as it turns out, he had falsified some DOT and ICC documents on the axles weight limits and used those on trailers and they had caused some accidents and one death! In Texas and in the state of Washington...
    Sometimes it's just NOT good to be a jerk!
    chelloveck likes this.
  2. tacmotusn

    tacmotusn Mosquito Sailor

    oh no !!!

    I don't even want to know how many of these you have first person experience with. I am taking no bets. With your bad luck history, it's all just too iffy. I hope these were all second person knowledge of incident type things with no losses on your part, but I wouldn't bet on that either. jmho
    dragonfly likes this.
  3. dragonfly

    dragonfly Monkey+++

    Yeah. All bets are off on that subject!...Some aren't mine, some are, and still a work in progress! It'SA it'SA it'SA.... real mess is what it is!
    But the good part is: now I'm free of the main loser and abuser....NEXT!
    ( See? I can't wait!)
  4. GrandpaDave

    GrandpaDave Monkey++

    the simple answer is to form an LLC...
    each partner/investor will hold a buyout clause in the contract...
    meaning if one partner dies a percent of the properties value will be paid to said person or the estate of...

    My uncle was a developer so I kind of learned a few things
  5. beast

    beast backwoodsman

    you also want a warranty deed to any land
    one that is registered and filed with the register of deeds
    dont buy land without an attorney, much as i hate em
    theres just some things ya cant do without them
    dragonfly likes this.
  6. larryinalabama

    larryinalabama Monkey++

    Title Insurance runs 172$ here in Bama Land.
  7. dragonfly

    dragonfly Monkey+++

    When I bought land you HAVE to purchase title insurance here when the closing costs are paid....The you also have those recording fees, and as many others as they can toss in, to get more $ from anyone! It's a never ending story...You never really OWN land, it OWNS you! Taxes always for nothing...I mean: I pay taxes for a fire department thst is NON existant, a library for a town located 35+ miles east and north of me, I'm taxed for a town south of me (7+miles) for the school district (different county!) where there were less than 125 kids, and of those, 85% are illegals, I pay taxes for all kinds of things that simply do not even exist, never have, and never will. What do I get for those taxes...? zip, zero, nada. No maintained roads, anywhere near me, no post office, nothing. I am listed as living in a town I have ONLY driven thru twice...! My zip code is a JOKE! The nearest law is in that same town...I pay for all of that, for someone else's convenience. The 2 counties involved have decided that those of us that have puirchased land in the middle of nowhere should be heavily taxed to their amusement....
    So, now I understand why there are so many out there in never never land, that are either squatters, or they just do not pay any taxes. As for actually being "legal", many just do what they want and ignore the not-so-local authorities...Like NO permits for a thing! The cost of the permits, the inspections, then the re-inspections and such ,are far more than any piece of land is worth. My estimates on 1 piece of land I paid $3,500 for ( not counting ANY closing costs, taxes, recording fees....etc.,etc.) was a whopping $8,000! That was to put in a septic/waste system, and one mobile home. Period! Now, that was using a well known composting system, ( Sunmar) where there was NO possibility of getting anything into the local aquifer/water supply. It's actually cheaper ( and stupid) to put an in ground septic and leeching system! What's wrong with that picture?
    Many people have been out there for 5-7 years now, and no one has ever seen a single inspector, as the counties hves no funding to do anything to those that live, in what the LEO's lovingly refer to as: the "crotch" of the 2 counties!
    Works for me!
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