Decision time for Israel

Discussion in 'General Survival and Preparedness' started by stg58, Jan 7, 2007.


  1. stg58

    stg58 Monkey+++ Site Supporter+ Founding Member

    A link for an interesting piece on Israel and Iran.

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    It was exactly a year ago. A small Falcon jet - favored by top Iranian military officers - crashed in northwest Iran near the Turkish border. Among those killed were Brig.-Gen. Ahmad Kazemi, commander of the elite Revolutionary Guard ground forces division, and at least 12 other officers.
    Rumors quickly spread that the plane had been sabotaged and that Kazemi had been killed in a devious Israeli plot.
    While Iranian official statements blamed bad weather and dilapidated engines for the crash, there was room for speculation that foul play may have had a hand. Kazemi had been responsible for the production and development of Iran's Shihab ballistic missile series, capable of delivering a nuclear warhead into the heart of Europe, not to mention Israel.
    He was also a close confidant of Iranian Defense Minister Mostafa Muhammad Najjar, from their days together in the Revolutionary Guard, where Najjar served as the head of the Middle East department, responsible for Israel and Lebanon.
    Since last January's crash, air travel for Iranian military officials has become increasingly dangerous. On November 27, a military transport plane crashed just after take-off from Teheran. More than 40 people were killed including 30 members of the Revolutionary Guard, some of them reported to be close advisers to President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. A week before, a helicopter crashed into the central town of Najafabad, killing six, including a senior Revolutionary Guard officer.
    The combined effect of these crashes, some Iranian analysts claim, has effectively gutted the high command of the Revolutionary Guard. But whatever the truth concerning the cause of these mysterious crashes, they show that numerous stumbling blocks confront Iran's efforts to develop nuclear-tipped missiles capable of reaching Israel. http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1167467659996&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull
     
  2. TailorMadeHell

    TailorMadeHell Lurking Shadow Creature

    As Emperor Palpatine said, 'Wipe them out. All of them'.

    The only thing that I find wrong with an Israeli strike is that they are only going to destroy the nuke facilities. There is no such thing as a 'peaceful muslim' so the whole job needs to be done. America needs to back Israel in whatever play it calls regardless of public opinion. And those against it, for the sake of the Jews controlling the world, just don't get it.

    This is not about taking over the world. It is about finally ending a hate-religion that should have been ended many hundreds of years ago. As long as you an 'Infidel' breathe air, the muslims hate you. So let this be an example that there will be no accepted plan to murder non-believers.

    I hope Israel strikes so many times that Iran turns into a big parking lot. Then we can finish the job in Iraq and move on.

    Just my 'call me an infidel to my face' thoughts.
     
  3. Blackjack

    Blackjack Monkey+++

    Agreed Tailor!
     
  4. Brokor

    Brokor Live Free or Cry Moderator Site Supporter+++ Founding Member

    Actually it is only radical Muslam that infects like a cancer, and that was started a few decades ago by the CIA...but I digress. Average Muslims are not hateful and violent, and are far more tolerant than the current day neo-fascist Christians and their 700 club religious intolerance. The fact is, all the major three religions- Jews, Muslims, and Christians, all worship the same god, which is the god of Abraham. The oldest being the Jewish version, and that wasn't good enough for Mohammed, who began as a self proclaimed messenger. The Muslim reigion later broke into two factions, the "sheits" and the "sunis", with each arguing over who should succeed their devine messenger. And then there are the Christians. Holy "sheit", did they ever pick a hand grenade of an icon. Thanks to the edicts of the past, we have ourselves an ordinary man turned into the devine, capable of walking on water and curing the diseases with a flick of the wrist. Constantines' power struggle was over...at last, Akhunatens' religion was reborn into the world with ever increasing vigor. --- Listen. As long as we have religion at all, people will continue killing each other in their gods name. It is the unmistakable nature of mankind.
     
  5. pizzamonkey

    pizzamonkey Monkey+++

    Funny I must have missed the episode when Pat Robertson told his Neo-Christian followers to kill all that will not convert to Christianity,,, Or encourage followers (mostly old ladies ) to strap explosives to themselves and blow up buses killing infidel old ladies. I have no fear of Pat Robertson and Jesus fanatics running the streets,,,when the so called "Peace Loving" Muslim's have the populace outnumbered that is a fearful thought ,ask anybody in France or parts of England.

    NEVER,,NEVER TRUST A MUSLIM THEY ARE ONLY LAYING LOW WAITING FOR THE TIME TO MAKE A MOVE!!!!! Most Muslim's will outright tell ya America is nothing but a bunch of Political Correct Sucks afraid to "offend anybody"" [soap]
     
  6. Brokor

    Brokor Live Free or Cry Moderator Site Supporter+++ Founding Member

    I won't argue religious perspective, as there is more entertainment watching the special olympics...but all you have to do in order to witness the blind devotion of the Christian masses is realize it's grown into the number one voting group in the nation, spearheaded by the neo-conservatives and flogged into a frenzy by the corporate media. Pat Robertson is no fool, he's a businessman first, and he would'nt have lasted this long without the support of his politial backers who realized the power behind influencing the minds of good people on a mass scale. You want to talk about murder? Then take a reality check by looking at the death tolls for retalliation of 9-11. Tell me that this holy war came at the hands of a few rag heads with utility knives, and I will gladly show you the documentation which proves otherwise. And ignore the business dealings of the political elite. I won't think any less of you...they already have a few hundred million thoroughly convinced that mass genocide is perfectly decent, Christian-like behavior. Take a drive through the bible-belt and count the "terrorist hunting license" bumper stickers.

    You don't need to have a bomb strapped to your chest to be murderous. By indifference, and by blindly supporting a war on corporate sponsored terror, millions of good hearted people are supporting the mass annihilation of entire races of people. Your religious hatred is no less justifiable than any other. Hate is hate, and the MAN who was'nt devine once taught his followers not to kill, not to hate. Deaf ears, it seems.
     
  7. TailorMadeHell

    TailorMadeHell Lurking Shadow Creature

    Reminds me of a joke I heard once. How many muslims does it take to change a lightbulb? Who cares, nuke 'em anyway.

    It is not that religion is a world-wide killer unless that religion was conceived upon the notion of killing non-believers. It is the humans that govern that religon that are responsible for the perversion of that religon. See, Christianity at times throughout history has been perverted to fit the needs of some. Though show me that Muslims ever departed from what was taught to them and written by the hand of man in the Qur'an.

    God is not corrupt. Whichever name you use for God, there is still no corruption. Then comes the bible of each God. This is written by those who 'know' what their God wants and will bring the message to others. This is where we get corruption. What the man writes in that book will influence people for generations to come. In the Christian bible, it does not mention a continued killing of infidels because that would make God happy and he'll reward you with a bunch of virgins.

    Christians have killed lots of people and Muslims have killed lots of people. Thing is quite simple and there is no denying it, Muslims haven't stopped. You can say Christians are responsible for wars. Well, you could say that. Though I believe that when elected, Bush was elected not only by Christians, but by Aetheists, Buddhists, Seventh Dayers, Mormons and so on down the line.

    It is not the belief in ones god that kills people, it is the corruption of teachings that kills people, unless of course your whole religion is based on killing people. There are no comparisons between Christians and Muslims save there is a God. Christians have persecuted and executed non-believers they thought as savages, witches or heretics. When education rolled onto the scene, this changed. There are no more witch burnings, or crusades. Just because a leader says he is a Christian and attacks others through warfare does not mean that Christians are a warring people. It is the leaders and the sheeple that are responsible.

    Now, look at the Muslims. They had a bible that was handed to them and they did not break into two parties because they thought the killing of infidels was wrong. They broke into two parties because they couldn't agree on a mouthpiece. They are still blindly following what is in their bible and that quite clearly states to get rid of the infidels. I don't care if you are Sunni or Shiite, it says to kill infidels (or as some would have you hear, convert them). They don't argue the point of that, they argue that they should be in charge of the scourging wave to rid the world of infidels. The 'peaceful' muslims are the ones that aren't idiot enough to openly kill people. Though they do it behind closed doors in meetings and they send out their 'brothers' to do it. They are even more disgusting than their 'brother' pawns.

    There is no 'peaceful' muslim. Their entire religion is about hatred of those different and they are commanded to eradicate that difference. Point in case is that there have been both Sunni (read Muslim) and Shiite (also, read Muslim) terrorists blowing people up by explosives. If there are only two classes of Muslim and both classes blow people up, how can it be said that there is a 'peaceful' muslim?

    I am not a world traveller, nor rocket scientist and I'm not even a bible scholar, though I know what peaceful means and the only muslim that I have seen that is peaceful are the ones dead on the battlefield or the ones in the US that don't want to openly incur the wrath of people. Maybe there is a third class of muslim that I don't know about yet, there could be, though I haven't heard about them or witnessed them. As far as my mind knows, all muslims go by the Qur'an and it gives destiny to those who want virgins as reward for killing infidels.

    Just appears to me that there is no way to defend a people like this. As far as the Christians go, it is leaders of men that destroy other men. It is not stated that anyone who isn't a Christians deserves to be beheaded or some such garbage as that. And I am by no means a sheep or blindly following a mouthpiece. I know what is meant to be and I know that it isn't getting done, so that concludes to me that there is someone given power by the American people that should be obeying the people, yet he is cruising on his own hot air doing what he wants to do without the okay from God or the people of his country.

    And there is a difference between killing out of hate and killing for preservation. What would be best? Let those who want to openly exterminate others, run free or show them this is unacceptable behavior? I believe it is better to kill the killer than let him go so that he may continue to kill others for the sheer spite of killing because they don't believe as he does. If this were a perfect world, we'd all be happy and peace loving, though in this real world choices have to be made and some have to die. There is a time for everything. And there is a time for self-defense. After all, eventually you run out of cheeks.

    Just some thoughts.
     
  8. Brokor

    Brokor Live Free or Cry Moderator Site Supporter+++ Founding Member

    Try not to contradict yourself or anything, Tailor. :p
    I guess we will just leave this one alone....and in doing so I make my final point clear: You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. - The religious are already thoroughly convinced. And THAT alone is a sure sign that progress will end right there.
     
  9. TailorMadeHell

    TailorMadeHell Lurking Shadow Creature

    Yea, I tend to do that when my mind is on a rant. It usually takes me three times to get it all in order.

    I will concede that some religions are bad if their 'manual' is bad. Then there are some religions that are good and only bad when the leaders are just wielding power over masses of people that follow blindly. You also have religions that are good and the followers are awake to any that are false.

    Even if my words don't come through quite right, I know what is right and what is wrong. Man, I wish I could talk better. It's bad when your fingers get tongue-tied. Oh well, my inability at times to put it in an understandable format is what makes me who I am I guess. Or something. Haha.
     
  10. Quigley_Sharps

    Quigley_Sharps The Badministrator Administrator Founding Member

    Christian masses founded this nation, it just didnt become the voting masses.
     
  11. monkeyman

    monkeyman Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    Just for another prospective...

    The Koran, from my admittedly somewhat limited knowledge of it, dosent repeatedly hammer on the point that they are to kill the infedels, or more accurately take part in 'conversion by the sword' by which the people either convert, accept a place as basicly a slave to those who follow the Koran and not speak against it or be executed. Its simply a passage or 2 that refers to it that some of the extreamests (a rather large part of the middle east but not ALL muslims) choose to focus on. It also tells them to be charitable, take care of their families and so on.

    The Bible also has places where it preaches hate, just like the passage 'thou shalt suffer not a witch to live' among others. Both Christians and Muslims (as well as Jews) follow the old testement and follow the God of Abraham and Mosses and there are any number of passages in the old testement in particular that tell its followers to kill those who do not follow old testement law for things as trivial as 'wearing a garment of two threads', planting 2 or more different crops in the same field and so on. The Christian church headed up the inquisitions and the crusades and practiced conversion by the sword heavily in Europe through out the middle ages. As recently as 50-60 years ago IIRC here in the US (most recent case as I recall wasin Texas in the 1950s or so) Christians have executed people for being whitches. If you dont think fanatic Christians can become violent due to their religion (or at least useing it as an excuse) then talk to some pagans from the Bible belt. I have known MANY pagans attacked in the past decade or 2 by groups of Christians due to their religion. It is in fact enouph of a concern that, while I havent been needed thus far, I serve as a backman (guard/security) for the group of pagans I host durring our religious gatherings and attend all services armed and make sure the clergy in charge knows the escape route to lead the folks by if attacked while my job would become to 'be chewy'. The KKK even claims biblical justification for their positions, which is also somewhat prevelent in our area.

    I dont bring up these points to down grade Christianity, those who follow the true spirit of its teachings are very fine folks who I have no problem with. I also dont bringit up to promote the Muslim faith, though I have known some Muslims who were very decent folks. I bring up these points just to point out that it is not the true spirit of either religion (or most any other) that is the source of the problem, it is those who are fanatical about them, especialy when they focus on narrow parts ofthe scriptures to distort the overall message and use their religion as an excuse to commit atrocities and there havebeen those throughout time who have done this with nearly any religion you could name. So while Im all for turning the fanatic Muslims who want to destroy us into worm food, it is not the religion its self that is inherently evil, just those who decide to twist it to justify their own prejiduces.
     
  12. Brokor

    Brokor Live Free or Cry Moderator Site Supporter+++ Founding Member

    Quig, this nation has had its fair share of atheists also. Quite a few signed the Declaration of Independence, and although the early witch-hunts may have some footing in this nation, I do not believe that there is too much Puritan thinking still going on. :)

    Monkeyman, those are all excellent points, and I agree wholeheartedly.
     
  13. ghrit

    ghrit Ambulatory anachronism Administrator Founding Member

    Bravo, MM!! Well said, and much more eloquently than I could, even after noodling it for a couple days.[applaud]
     
  14. jim

    jim Monkey+++ Founding Member

    Brokor

    You're totally ignorant of many things especially the FF and Muslims. It would take books of information to properly address your mistatements. Believe what you wish, but almost all Muslims want you converted or dead.

    I'm a Christian, but I do not use that to justily the destruction of Islam. It is enough for me to know that they want me and mine dead. Period. I don't hate a snake or mad dog, but I damned sure terminate their activities if they're a danger to me or mine. Muslims by their own admission are a danger to the modern world and should be dealt with as dispassionately and finally as possible. Nothing personal, it's merely a matter of survival.

    jim
     
  15. jim

    jim Monkey+++ Founding Member

    Brokor

    My apologies for the first part of my response. Sometimes I get too hot-headed for my own good.

    I do still stand by the part about almost all Muslims wanting we infidels dead or converted though.

    jim
     
  16. Brokor

    Brokor Live Free or Cry Moderator Site Supporter+++ Founding Member

    Hey, it's not a problem Jim. After you get to know me you may find that I am a man with very few delusions. That being said, I honestly and truly do admire People who love other People, no matter their religion. My point is concerning radical religious movements as well as those who act irrationally on blind faith and obedience. I was long ago affiliated with numerous religions, learning all I can, so I can speak from experience...but, I have also moved on -deciding to stand on my own and straying away from organized religions. Today I am only spiritual, not exactly athiest, but tolerant of People. I do not, however excuse hatred and fear, or the execution of entire races of People based on their beliefs. The actions of others should be the only point raised, and unfortunately that is completely based on the individual.

    Even so, I believe that radical muslims were bred to destroy Christianity, and like a rabid dog being kicked, the Christian masses have seemingly reared their heads and barred their teeth. But one must ask -is all of this justified?

    That is a matter of perspective. Whenever we talk about BELIEFS, we are talking about strong, passionate feelings, and I do not believe that rationality plays a part in this holy war. Progress cannot be made when People are so passionate...and therein lies the wisdom in all of this.

    I will say it again: To be thoroughly convinced that your beliefs are true, and others are wrong, is a sure sign that progress will end.

    As history as proven time and again...this will most likely not end until a lot of People are dead. Because we cannot tolerate each other, we lash out in fear, or out of blind rage. And that hatred may just consume us all. To me, religion acts as a barrier, keeping us from doing our best, distracting us from ourselves. Learning to help People on our own, without the crutch of religion will erase our differences and place us all, for the very first time, on equal moral ground.
     
  17. Brokor

    Brokor Live Free or Cry Moderator Site Supporter+++ Founding Member

    Remember: Divide and conquer.

    For a very long time, powerful people have been playing with your minds and your hearts, preying upon your individual weaknesses. It is up to you to decide how beautiful you can be without religions dictating what is right and wrong.

    Standing on your own, and being a decent person toward others does not require you to believe in a book of religion. It only requires you to only believe in yourself.
     
  18. monkeyman

    monkeyman Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    On a bit of a side note, it dose seem from some of the previous actions that the insurgents are not motivated entirely by religous hatred of infedels, or maybe they just have a strong sense of self preservation. A while back they had captured a cardinal. They held him for a few days then released him. He would have very clearly not been a muslim and yet was released unharmed.

    Now this may be a clear sign that they are not motivated as much as many of us think by a mentality of 'kill the infedel' (it may just be Americans) or just a smart move. I know while they held him I had discussed with some the fact that if they did execute him in the way they had captured Americans they would find a wrath the US could not bring to bear upon them. I based that on the fact that so many countries governments pay heavy consideration to direction from the vadican as well as some others groups that profess to be Catholic. Most of the central American drug lords, with their own private armies trained as well as our own special forces, are Catholic and attempt to do thingslike donate new churches and such to try to earn forgivness. Similar could be said for Italian and such moffia. Add to that the soldiers the vadican its self has at its disposal (primairly the papal guard with a few others) and I was almost hopeing they would be stupid enouph to execute him and quite litteraly 'piss off the Pope'. Not only would MANY more countries (especialy many of the smaller ones) be sending troops and support, but there would very likely have been many 'private armies' not bothered by international law and such going in. While there would have likely been many many inocent lives lost, I still think that would have blown the top off of it and removed the gloves to a point that it would have ended quickly and decisively.
     
  19. jim

    jim Monkey+++ Founding Member

    I think some of the radicals figured that out too. I told my wife that the biggest mistake they could make was killing or mishandling that gentleman. It would have caused the New Crusades.
    jim
     
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