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Defeatist Mindset and Rogue Elements

Discussion in 'General Survival and Preparedness' started by Son0fLib3rty, Jan 27, 2016.

  1. Son0fLib3rty

    Son0fLib3rty Monkey

    I read an article the other day written by a prepper with a bad case of automatic loser syndrome. I personally think the guy watches too much Mad Maxx, but again that's my personal opinion. His article was written from the perspective of a rogue element. A bandit or marauder if you will. From this viewpoint he explains that the marauder has basic military training (which in all honesty doesn't amount to much) but he goes on to describe the recon techniques, the probing of a community or compound by this bandit and his 8-10 comrades and ultimately the assault on said target. Most of the behavior he describes isn't something your average criminally minded degenerate is going to be familiar with. It's always possible but unless the guy was special forces or on seal team 6 there's not much to work with there. Most people with the level of training attributed above will know better than to attack a compound or community with unknown variables with that limited of man power and resources. Really you just want to sneak in, take what you can and sneak out if possible. However it is important to keep an open mind about it. It's always safe to assume anyone you meet could have some cards up their sleeve that don't bode well for you.

    Now I get all the hypotheticals and what ifs that could be thrown around for weeks on end. My bottom line question is this. In the aforementioned article along with many others I've come across, why do people always seem to think they're going to be always be at the absolute mercy of these rogue elements? I see a lot of "there's no use fighting, you're definitely going to die".

    I can't wrap my head around a defeatist mindset. Why is it so prevalent in prepper culture?
    Why are these "experts" and "subject authorities" feeding it?
    It seems to boil down to "If I can't do it, no one else can"

    Is there something I'm missing? Am I hitting a disconnect somewhere?

    I'm just trying to gain an understanding of all of this.
  2. chelloveck

    chelloveck Diabolus Causidicus

    Some people will rationalise their own lack of commitment to preparing for hard times on the false assumption that we are all doomed whatever we do. They will be the first ones to walk through the portals of the FEMA camps, unless they also own firearms in which case they some will try to prey on the those unable to defend what they have. Attrition will tend to reduce their numbers when they underestimate any tough nuts they try to crack.
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2016
  3. Altoidfishfins

    Altoidfishfins Monkey++

    That attitude isn't limited to some preppers. A large number of people either believe nothing will ever go wrong, or if it does, there's no hope and you may as well give up if you can't have all the amenities that our modern life provides.

    Nature will sort those out. And while it may also sort out some of those who did everything right, at least they tried. If I go down as the direct or indirect result of some kind of apocalypse, it won't be because I gave up due to the fact that I could no longer text on my smart phone, play X-Box (or whatever they're calling it these days), or didn't have access to fufu sweet smelling conditioner for my hair.

    It's unbelievable the high value Americans place on crap like this. You'd think their lives literally depended on it. In their so-called minds, it does.
  4. Ganado

    Ganado Monkey+++

    Without getting technical on brain chemistry and mental patterns, the human mind is designed to 'normalize' the primary function of the brain is to preserve the body so unless people can get past the stress of thinking of the possilities of total society melt down, they revert to a 'normal' 'everything will stay the same' state that the brain likes to maintain.

    Lets face it, when I woke up and started getting serious about prepping, I freaked out at all the possibilities of what could go wrong, and did I have enough stuff for stay home vs bug out... blah blah blah, you get the point as we have all been there.

    Most people just look at those possibilities and let their brain chemistry revert them to 'normal, it will never happen to me' mentality. The brain likes to 'normalize' all responses so that you have enough stress to live and grow some but not enough stress to kill you.

    Living in possibilities (for success or society breakdown) is very stressful and it requires each human being to develop the ability to 'think ahead' to 'live in the unknown' and living in the unknown and preparing for as many possibilities as you can think of is stressful until 'thinking ahead and living in the unknown' becomes the new normal for the brain. Hope that makes sense for how the brain 'normalized' everything.

    Most people are addicted to being 'comfortable' (the brain does this to you when it normalizes, no one can get away from it) so stepping outside of what is 'normal and comfortable' is very difficult for most people. But to really change and grow each human being has to step outside of what is 'normal' and 'comfortable' long enough for the new situation to become 'normal' and 'comfortable'. hope this makes sense as its difficult to explain in a post

    So to answer your question about defeatist mentality, many people quit living rather than live in the unknown or living in an uncomfortable situation long enough for it to change or for it to become 'normal'. I don't know if I would call them defeatist but I certainly have some compassion for their lack of will to live. And having compassion doesn't mean I'm willing to hand feed them. You either over come or you don't as an adult.

    I sometimes wonder if we haven't forgotten how to teach people to be self reliant and the 'mental toughness' it takes to survive and/or be self reliant. Self reliance is a learned skill. You can learn it thru family or by just surviving.
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2016
  5. UncleMorgan

    UncleMorgan I eat vegetables. My friends are not vegetables.

    On the good side, the normalcy bias keeps the old status quoing. On the bad side, the normalcy bias prevents prevention.

    One thing that would-be marauders never seem to consider is the batting average. If they're running a 10% success rate, 9 out of 10 attacks they lose and get dead. If they're batting 50%, they lose one out of two. If they're batting 90% they only lose one out of ten--but whatever the loss rate is, they only get to lose once.

    Marauders will be a largely self-correcting and generally short-term problem.

    It's not a career with a superior retirement program.
  6. BTPost

    BTPost Old Fart Snow Monkey Moderator

    It is the Old "Wolf, Sheep, Sheep Dog" senerio..... The Wolf only gets the Sheep, until he runs up against a Sheep Dog... The Wolf can't go to the Vet, when he gets mauled, The Shepard takes the Sheep Dog, to the Vet when He gets mauled, and nurses him back to health.... This is EXACTLY why Wolves, rarely attack Dogs, One on One.... They need Superior Numbers to prevail in a fight.... or they go looking for easier Prey....
  7. Pax Mentis

    Pax Mentis Philosopher King Site Supporter

    Sometimes I think it goes more like: On the good side, the normalcy bias keeps the old status quoing. On the bad side, the normalcy bias keeps the old status quoing...

    I think Ganado hit the key as to why many otherwise intelligent people are not prepared. It is both more comforting and easier to just say that A) nothing will happen (here) and B) if something does happen, there's nothing we can do about it. If you try to talk to them about prepping and point out what you can do, it falls back to the "well, what if so and so happens? You can't prepare for that."

    I am thankful that I was really a prepper before I even thought about why and for what I was prepping. My parents lived through the depression of the 1930s and were always prepared for another. As a result, I was always of a mind to be prepared. When you put many years of living in and working out of Salt Lake City and being exposed to the LDS mindset on top of that, I was "fertile ground" when I met some "survivalists" (they are now "preppers"...but that term came later) in the mid '80s. Without the base philosophy already installed in my brain, I honestly can't say whether I would have dedicated the next 30 years to being prepared for anything survivable or just stayed in the "It can't happen here" mindset.
  8. duane

    duane Monkey++

    I think to many preppers and almost all new ones error in thinking it will be an all or nothing event. My odds of facing Katrina in the Dome are o. I live NH, so my odds of 2 feet of snow are 100 %, and thus I have a F350 snowplow and a couple barrels of sand, 40 gallons of fuel and a tractor as a backup. I use it every winter, is that prepping, don't know, but I get to work and get paid. Will I survive WWIII being 60 air miles from Boston, probably not, but using my preps, wood heat, water and power back up, stored food,and such, I have survived in relative comfort several snow storms of over 3 feet and ice storms that knocked out power for 2 weeks. I think that the rogue element will die out very quickly due to lack of resources, ours and theirs, and the only question left is if society and a technical base continues to exist. They have no easy way to replace losses of men, equipment, and supplies and killing the goose that lays the golden eggs tends to be a bad tactic in the long run. My garden, greenhouse, stored seeds and fertilizer, knowledge and equipment, would with a little cooperation and help feed a half dozen people for years, my stored food would feed a 30 man rouge element for at the most a month and they could not survive until the long term food production kicks in.
  9. Son0fLib3rty

    Son0fLib3rty Monkey

    I'm working my way to a small farm right now, Originally I was going to get about 10 acres, but I've found a 25 acre spread that's much nicer. My biggest weather concern is tornadoes down here. We don't get much snow and up until 2015 we didn't get much rain either. I've got plans for some livestock and greenhouses for produce.

    I've taken the "winning the hearts and minds" approach. My organization has been helping out in our county with community needs. We've been public and visible. Our communities and even local authorities are coming to trust us. It's placed rogue elements on a low priority level for me.

    I think people should take a more self reliant attitude and understand that they're usually capable of much more than they realize. It seems that too many fall into the mindset of the bad guys are all powerful and can't be beat. Well the bad guys are human too. They bleed and die just like everyone else.
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2016
  10. Elessar

    Elessar Monkey+ Site Supporter+

    Well, I think we're drifting from the OP main point of the defeatist attitude that seems to be prevalent in many. I can understand the position of this normalcy bias because I've read about it as well as experienced it for myself within my own family and others. I know that some people are simply weak minded and will choose to lay down, surrender or die instead of fight to survive. I've talked with people who have espoused this intention and have been shocked by those people because of my personal impression of that person/people. In one case, the person that introduced me to prepping has said that they don't intend to "participate" to survive. Still, today, I am shocked to say it out loud here.

    Personally, I will "never give up, never surrender, never quit" and can't perceive the will of anyone holding any other perspective. It just completely escapes me how anyone could/would simply lay down and quit. This is different from having a clear understanding the words that others have posted here. I believe it will take a tough minded individuals filled with self reliance to survive any of the SHTF scenarios that have been put forth across this forum as well as the attrition that will take place over the course of time and the breakdown of society/services. It will also take flexibility and willingness to cooperate to re-establish society based on trust or mutual benefit, but those are issues for another topic as well.

    Bottom line: some just ain't gonna make it because of incomplete preps, inadequate skill/knowledge or just bad luck, and some will simply chose not to.
  11. chelloveck

    chelloveck Diabolus Causidicus

    I think that things will probably devolve into some variation on the "Wild West" way of dealing with outlaws and rogue raiders. Predatory humans will never be eliminated, but like rabid dogs, they can be kept under tolerable control. Communities of necessity will inevitably band together against the depredations of outsiders. Large mega cities are unsustainable without the inputs from outside of themselves, and will probably decay the way that Detroit has; but only more rapidly, and more decisively.

    I think Ganado has the right of it. Preppers probably experience somewhat less normalcy bias than the average person who lives from pay cheque to pay cheque. The preppers on the Titanic would be the ones building life rafts while the others would be dancing for as long as the band kept playing the music.
    Ganado likes this.
  12. Motomom34

    Motomom34 Moderator Moderator Site Supporter++

    “It ain’t dying I’m talking about, it’s living. I doubt it matters where you die, but it matters where you live.” ~spoken by Augustus McCrae” Larry McMurtry Lonesome Dove

    It is all in the attitude. Look at how we live now. We work hard and sock away money so that we can die comfortably. How many people do you know think about the end game being how they lived their life vs. dying? Most think of death. It looms and we know it is coming. We are unsure when but death is in all of our futures so the persons that @Son0fLib3rty is speaking of are projecting how they want to die.
    As monkeys mentioned above it is the unknown. We do live a cushy life but what would be a more honorable death of a prepper, death from a roving band vs. death because you screwed up? It seems there is a pressure that we put on ourselves by embracing this prepper lifestyle. We are bracing ourselves to be ready for a collapse or pandemic but are we really ready? That little voice in the back of your head, can you survive this? Are you ready for this? Do you have the skills and knowledge for this? What about the strength?

    Can I survive? Will I survive? Probably not but I am not doing this for me, I am doing this for my children. Everything I do is for them. If I die being the front-line, I just hope and pray that they make it. I hope they can take all that I stored, all that I taught them and survive. My kids know the true spirit of an American and I am banking on them to carry on that spirit. If I survive then, bonus. So maybe I am a defeatist in some sense but personally I would like to think I will go down swinging. They say, "go big or go home", I would like to go big when I go home.
  13. arleigh

    arleigh Goophy monkey

    NO one get's out of this life alive.
    I believe in making a difference at least with in the realm of my influence .
    If my reserves can extend the life's of others, than so be it.
    I am not obligated to support any one else, but those I choose to .
    It's my choice.
    It's my choice the character I want to support.
    I have friends that when confronted with survival say they don't wish to survive.
    That's now ,
    we'll see.
    Most people need hope , a reason to live ,which make children a valuable asset if only for that reason.
    A man with a wife that loves him, has more to fight for , a man with nothing to loose can go reckless abandon like" Lethal Weapon" or Mad Max", but that is a mercenary basically . he has no loyalties .
    If it comes down to it ,and fire fights are inevitable , I'd rather had my ammo to the better shot ,than horde it to my self.
    I am not a defeatist , however if the chances are high some one must die for the survival of the group , I have things right with God, and am read to go .
    But some one else may not have his life in order yet, and would not presume them to prematurely make that sacrifice, if it comes down to it .
    chelloveck likes this.
  14. chelloveck

    chelloveck Diabolus Causidicus

    Sometimes that becomes a self fulfilling prophecy, even if there are actual chances of surviving. People with this kind of mindset will fail to see the opportunities open to them, or fail to grasp them when seen. They have already surrendered the initiative to a self perceived inevitable annihilation. A key element to survival is the ability to adapt to changing circumstances, and a commitment to keeping intact a belief in creating a life worth living for....even if, short term, a seemingly unbearable hell needs to be endured.
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2016
    Ganado likes this.
  15. Gator 45/70

    Gator 45/70 Monkey+++

    I once had a defeatist in the family,
    I told her she simply needed to toughen up if she expected to stay and thrive...
    10 years later, I have created a monster of 1 tough azz woman.. She'll do.
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