Diesel Generator 5,000 KW, 6,500 surge "All Power"

Discussion in 'General Survival and Preparedness' started by azrancher, Feb 5, 2015.


  1. azrancher

    azrancher Monkey +++

    OK, I know this generator isn't the best (China), but that's not the question.

    It has a fuel shut off that is almost impossible to reach.

    It's fuel injected, it's diesel... does it need a fuel shutoff?

    I cycle it monthly, no problems so far.
     
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  2. Airtime

    Airtime Monkey+++ Site Supporter

    More important would be a valve/shutoff on the tank vent to essentially seal the tank when the engine is not running so that temperature and ambient air pressure variations don't cycle air in and out of the tank with occasional condensation forming in the tank. This happens when real cool weather is followed by warm humid air and the air's moisture condenses on cool surfaces, including the diesel fuel in the tank. Water then sinks and won't evaporate resulting in water accumulation. This then causes issues. A diesel shut off valve generally does not need to be closed between operations for the engine's sake. Its there mostly to facilitate changing fuel filters or draining water from separators and not having fuel run all over the place if a line failed while dormant. Keeping the fuel good and dry is first and foremost important.

    AT
     
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  3. azrancher

    azrancher Monkey +++

    Yeah I was thinking about the water fuel separators like on my tractors, anybody got a number for a small one?
     
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  4. Cruisin Sloth

    Cruisin Sloth Special & Slow

    Air Time got it . I leave my diesels with the fuel valves on and (I MARK THEM for Off &ON directions) .I use magnets with a bright red flagging tape to stick on the machine when they are in storage more to remind me to check the oil level / fuel & remove air intake & exhaust oiled plug to stop moisture getting in & for the fuel cap , I grease the sealing / thread area well put the cap in a zip-lock baggie install the cap slowly and the suck out all air in baggie & seal .
    I haven't started the snowblower in 3 years, just needs all plug's pulled & fuel added , a few others are also waiting with red tags on them .
    My gas machines get new auto trany oil & diesel fuel in there tanks while they wait. I can drain them & add gas & off they go after years of sitting. Some of my logging gear is used and then will sit for years till it's time to work again. I fill the chippers & skidders with used ATF & diesel & then plug all ports , HYD vent also ..
    Hour meters installed on all machines ,hrs on filters when changed .
    This keeps the moisture down , I live in a rain forest .
    Sloth

    How small is the machine ? or how big of area do you have to install one ?
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2015
    Airborne Monkey likes this.
  5. azrancher

    azrancher Monkey +++

    1 cylinder diesel, 5,000 KW, so not much space, something smaller than my MF30 tractor, not sure, maybe 3" from end to end on a 1/4" hose line, maybe 2" deep, I'm not even sure something exists...
     
  6. Cruisin Sloth

    Cruisin Sloth Special & Slow

    I haven't seen one as such , as small . I use a small Racor on my yota 3B & kubotas have a small one that's 5" tall is my smallest.
    If you find one , PLZ pm me the info , Id buy a few. I did see some small units when in China & India .

    Sloth
     
  7. Dunerunner

    Dunerunner Monkey

    You're talking a fuel shut off, not an air shut off. I have no idea why you would want one and not both as safeties in the event of a run on or run away engine. A diesel will suck the engine oil around the valves and rings and burn it as fuel. Fuel flow is then unregulated and the engine accelerates until it eviscerates itself, thus the air shutoff.
     
  8. Airtime

    Airtime Monkey+++ Site Supporter

    Air shut off valves are generally needed as safety device on diesels that operate in natural gas fields, oil fields, refineries or similar environments where there is a good probability of hydrocarbons being plentiful in the air. Having been in the diesel engine design world, specifically for the fuel system, controls and diagnostics, we never ran into a need for air shut off valves outside of operation in environments where hydrocarbons may be abundant in the air. Engine oil is not a concern. Unless equipped with an oil field air shutoff option, you will not find one on a Cummins engine for that purpose. Some models do have air throttle valves to assist in creating the right fractions of fresh air and exhaust gas recirculation and those can double as an air shut off valve, but if the combustion/emission strategy didn't need it for EGR control, it would not be there.... but YMMV.

    AT
     
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  9. ghrit

    ghrit Ambulatory anachronism Administrator Founding Member

    I suspect that most monkeys know this, but just in case --

    The only way to stop a diesel engine is shut off it's fuel (or overload it.) That means that if there is a combustible in the air anyway, shutting off the fuel line won't do it for you, and worse, the combustible material in the air stream is not controllable to keep the engine at it's designed speed. If the airborne vapor (or even coal dust) is thin, the engine might stall out. Then again, if the combustible is rich enough in the air, the engine will run away and overspeed, possibly self destructing. That is the reason for air valves in areas where air borne fuel vapors might exist; they would be the only way to stop a fuel flow.
     
  10. Dunerunner

    Dunerunner Monkey

    You are correct that ambient combustibles can result in a run away diesel engine, but that situation can also arise from a worn engine, thus the air shut off safeties which will block this alternate fuel source...

    All of the diesel engine I worked on had crankcase breathers that dumped into the generator room. The V-12 Detroit at one facility had one for each bank that dumped into a 3# coffee can filled with steel wool to trap and condense the oil vapors. The P&H I worked on was a two cycle air scavenged diesel with a roots blower. The air shut off was to protect the engine should the oil seals in the blower fail. Not just for oil and gas field operations but as a precaution against what is described below, although all the engines I worked on were in sheds, and the breathers dumped into the atmosphere. Under normal operations, most of the combustibles were exhausted through the radiator and mechanical louvers allowed fresh air to enter the room flushing the unburned hydrocarbon emissions and oil mist from the shed.

    From Wiki....Diesel engine runaway - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

     
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  11. Cruisin Sloth

    Cruisin Sloth Special & Slow

    Don't know how we got into run-a-ways diesels , but I plug the in & out and seal up the engines when they can sit for a year 2-five +.
    The fuel shut off valves are in off for long storage but the diesel is still in the lines , Gas engines are drained & a mixture of NEW ATF & DIESEL is in the line & carb float , same as a rag in is soaked in this & stuffed in the intake of the carb behind the air filter & exhaust hole . Im talking Looooong term ..

    Fuel & water separators is what I thought AZ was asking & AT answered the petcock question.
    Here is the type I saw when working in China : 0000900212,OE 0000900212 Other fuel water separator for OE

    Sloth

    Edit : AZ your not turning off the fuel & letting the diesel run out / off ?
    This is not a good practice , the fuel pumps like to have diesel fuel for lube & lack of air . Air in the system causes problems & corrosion.
    Best is the use the method that is installed on the engine for shut down & if needed then turn off the fuel petcock .
    On Gas carb engines , yes I run them out so Im not leaving fuel in the float chamber ,but for fuel injected gas ,NO i don't run them out . If I do store a fuel injected engine , I add ATF into the fuel that it will shut off with , keeping a heavy oiled fuel in there till next start.None of my engines have catalytic converters or HO2S on them ..
    OIL & catalytic converters or HO2S don't play together very long.
    Sloth
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2015
    Dunerunner likes this.
  12. Dunerunner

    Dunerunner Monkey

    Thought he was talking about a safety, not a manual isolation valve.... My bad!!

    I would guess that if you do not go through your fuel very rapidly, a water trap might not be a bad idea. He did mention that he runs the set monthly, though...

    Some water seperators here Amazon.com: Fuel & Water Separators - Fuel System: Automotive
     
  13. Cruisin Sloth

    Cruisin Sloth Special & Slow

  14. azrancher

    azrancher Monkey +++

    No I'm not turning off the fuel and letting run till it stops, just wanting to know what happens if after it stops, and it stops 2 different ways, 1 I think is a key operated electrical solenoid on the injector, and 2 is a lever on the side of the engine (I don't know what it does), I don't see any way that is controlling the air input... Just wondering what good it does if you turn it off using the key, then why do you need to shut off the fuel supply?
     
  15. Dunerunner

    Dunerunner Monkey

    My guess would be to isolate the injector pump for replacement, prevent syphoning from the fuel tank. The solenoid is on the inlet of the injector pump, then I would think the shut off might also be in the event the solenoid fails.

    @azrancher Post the make and model of the engine....
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2015
  16. ghrit

    ghrit Ambulatory anachronism Administrator Founding Member

    Another guess about the lever, might be simply lifting a set of valves so compression can't happen. Really do NOT know. What make and model is the beast? (Might be able to get a hint on the web.)
     
  17. Gator 45/70

    Gator 45/70 Monkey+++

    You are correct, We had these in the Gulf on every diesel engine, Periodically we tested the ESD device for the Government boys,
    It had to work, By that I mean it had to kill the engine and not just slow it down, Most are manually operated, This was a major problem on the Deep Water Horizon, When the natural gas hit the air intakes the generators ran away, More than likely this was the primary ignition source.
     
  18. Gator 45/70

    Gator 45/70 Monkey+++

    We actually had 2-V-12 71's with Impco carburetor's mounted on the blowers, We were running an estimated 70/30 fuel mix
    70% diesel 30% natural gas, It worked.
     
  19. azrancher

    azrancher Monkey +++

    Yeah I'm thinking that it may float the valves, I think my RD-6 works that way, because on it you flip one lever and compression starts then you flip the other lever to feed fuel. I'll work on the make and model, I think it was Northern Tool from China.
     
  20. Cruisin Sloth

    Cruisin Sloth Special & Slow

    (12V71's In duel fuel ) Is for the post above ^^^^^^^^^^^^
    also seen 16V149 in straight NG fuel with spark plugs installed rather than injectors .
    Starts on NG then changes over to methane (Poo fuel )

    Sloth
     
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