Electric cars should be competing against gas cars

Discussion in 'Peak Oil' started by Kingfish, May 20, 2011.

  1. beast

    beast backwoodsman

    actually the first bikes were just to sit on and push with your feet
    they were made so rich people could walk sitting down...lol
  2. Kingfish

    Kingfish Self Reliant

    After reading about the Zap it makes the cut as far as price but when I see made in China it ends there for me. Nope Im not buying a chinese car. Kingfish
  3. Brokor

    Brokor Live Free or Cry Moderator Site Supporter+++ Founding Member

  4. ghrit

    ghrit Bad company Administrator Founding Member

    What part is [BSf]? Barring a breakthru in storing watts portably, it's pretty close. And there are a lot of propane vehicles in use on farms and more in industrial service.

    What other viable alternatives are there aside shoe leather express? Fuel cells come to mind, but currently they aren't particularly portable.
    Gator 45/70, BTPost and Cephus like this.
  5. Brokor

    Brokor Live Free or Cry Moderator Site Supporter+++ Founding Member

    Ghrit, everything you say is BS to me. However, what I called BS on for MM is the fact that he is in the OIL BUSINESS and he's the first one to defend it's pathetic existence, every time. Sure, he's a stand-up guy, I admire him for his courage...but what he said was still BS.

    The corrupt government and the corporations (i.e. the same damn thing) are in business to make profits --especially when it comes to OIL. How many inventors and scientists have been murdered over the years who have come up with brilliant patents or ideas? And who has the monopoly on technology these days? WE HAVE THE ABILITY to make alternate fuel cars (damn good ones, too), WE HAVE THE ABILITY to power each and every home on the planet independent of the power companies.

    Kingfish likes this.
  6. Kingfish

    Kingfish Self Reliant

    I have to agree with Broker on this statement. We have the ability to build good cars that do NOT need fossil Fuel . The fact we are not is because of control. When I look at the Sterling engine, The ForkenSwift, Wood gas engines, Cars that run on compressed air and the list goes on I can see only one obstacle and that obstacle is oil. Nothing drives the willingness to try new things like freedom. I want to be free from my dependence on oil. I want those bastards to come crawling back to me trying to give it away. It is really time people to leave oil and its corruption behind. Ill also not get sucked into buying a Chinese car furthering the cause of Global socialism. What America needs is another Henry Ford. The model T of electric cars built in the United States. Built by our people and buiolt to free us from Oil. Kingfish
  7. Minuteman

    Minuteman Chaplain Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    In a free market economy if someone was to invent a low cost, efficient, reliable alternative to fossil fuels they would be a biziillionaire. The fact that that has not happened is proof that the technology simply is not there yet.

    The fact is that oil is the life blood of the worlds economies, and it doesn't matter if you are in the business or not that is simple truth. And it is not some great worldwide (name your CT boogeyman) conspiracy to enslave the masses and keep them addicted to oil.

    I am one of a few oilmen who break with the official mantra of "Oils Well". "We have plenty and there is no problem". The people warning about peak oil are not usually found in this business. It's not good for business to tell your investors that the product you sell is running out.

    So I am all for invention and new technology. I would love to have a vehicle that would run 70 miles an hour for 500 miles on tap water. Or be able to power my home with a generator that ran on cow farts.

    I am retiring in 10 years and there is no way that any alternative fuels will come along in that time and put me out of work. So I have no vested interest in "defending" anything. I only put forth the facts, not speculations and wild eyed conspiracy theories. That's the only [BSf] That I see.
    BackwoodsmanUSA and BTPost like this.
  8. Seawolf1090

    Seawolf1090 Retired Curmudgeonly IT Monkey Founding Member

    The biggest problem with replacing petroleum fuels is one of 'energy density'. Gasoline is the most efficient fuel we have that is reasonably cheap and easily available. Most 'alternative fuels' simply don't put out the BTU energy for the same amount of fuel - alcohol, hydrogen, LP gas, NG - all have their problems. You burn more to go the same distance or do the same work.
    With other forms of power, it gets even worse. To charge our nice efficient electric cars, we either burn oil, coal or other fuels at the power station, or use nuclear, or use a heck of a lot of solar panels! We simply shift the point where we use the fuels......
    I had hoped, a couple years back, that something useable would come of the 'Brown's Gas Generation' systems some guys have played with on YouTube. THAT would be 'running your car on tap water', in a way.
    Until the technology breakthrough comes, if ever, we are stuck with using oil & gas. Problem is, we also use it for plastics, medicines, cosmetics, food...... as the supply dwindles, we lose more than just fuel for our horseless carriages......
    BTPost likes this.
  9. Brokor

    Brokor Live Free or Cry Moderator Site Supporter+++ Founding Member

    Thanks to the corporations, yes...oil and the wars for profit WILL continue. Thanks for caring.
    And I wasn't insinuating you have a vested interest. I was insinuating that your mind is clouded and you have been in the sun too long. Perhaps you are too complacent and everything is just a simple, easily rectified matter to you. No matter. Water under the bridge. I still think you are a good man with a well paying job who honestly believes the oil companies are all comprised of good people and there is no real bad in the world with oil dynasties.

    This argument is silly as far as I am concerned. It's a "no-brainer".

    It would be like ME working for FORD motor company, and let's say it's the ONLY motor company in the entire world. My cartel of Ford corporations continuously scare people into believing we will soon run out of Ford engines. We hike up the price. We wage war to gain assets so only WE can make Ford engines. No other car company can own or operate a vehicle without a Ford engine. Some say there are "alternative engines" out there, but I scoff at them and call them "conspiracy nutjobs". I am so proud of myself. I love my job. Look at me, so sane and proud and happy.

    It's kind of like that.
  10. ghrit

    ghrit Bad company Administrator Founding Member

    [aiw] [ghrit]
  11. Kingfish

    Kingfish Self Reliant

    Ghrit, You mention the fact that gas is cheaper and competing fuels lose . That is exactly what I am saying. See how it is with control.

    Gas prices soar, people get angry and start to turn to other sources. A small company is born offering a competative alternative. Gas prices are lowered and the small company dies. The fact is that this control effectively keeps new alternatives from being developed. Then two kids just go out and do it for 997 bucks. We have the capability to get off of oil right now and have had it for many years. The problem is investors will not back second place and oil remains in 1st place. Right now investors are looking at electric cars again but gas prices are starting to fall so how much interest will there be in electrics once they get gas back down to 2.90? I can supplement electricity. I can shave my electric bill by using solar, wind, sterling, wood and many other sources of creating electricity but I can not Manufacture gasoline. This is the trap my friend. As long as Gasoline is the main source of fuel I am controlled AND SO ARE YOU. KINGFISH
  12. ghrit

    ghrit Bad company Administrator Founding Member

    I have heard of that effort, but haven't looked into it at all. What's the range of this thousand dollar machine? (Asked another way, how far will it go on a tank full?)
  13. Byte

    Byte Monkey+++

    Another cost that seems to be completely overlooked in this discussion so far is the total energy cost in production & materials in vehicles. Can alternative energy sources provide the vehicle and the materials it is made up of? Can other materials replace the plastics and polymers that make up the vehicle? Are they light and durable? What are the energy costs of their production? Take out every part in your car that is made directly from oil (not the energy produced by oil, just parts made from an oil product) and see how much is left...a fairly heavy Flintstones ride at best.

    Technology is certainly advancing at an astronomical pace but fossil fuel usage is our world and it will continue to be long after we and several other generations are long gone. That is a fact that we just have to come to terms with.

    I'm glad people are working very hard to advance alternate energy production but unless cold fusion miraculously starts working there isn't anything else on the horizon with a high enough energy density to replace fossil fuels. It does stand to reason, however, that a first step in this long process is the move to an alternate energy used to operate our vehicles. Right now electricity seems to be that transition source. A complete switch to electricity should lengthen our ability to use oil for quite awhile. The vast majority of our electricity is still being provided by coal, however. Like oil, coal is a finite fossil fuel. We're just swapping one finite fossil fuel source for another. Solar, wind, hydro & geothermal are all possibilities for alternate electrical production though I'm not sure what the relative oil investments in each method are on any scale that will matter. What kind of capacity is necessary to power one electric vehicle for each gas/diesel powered vehicle currently in existence in just the US alone? Due to the fact that so much still needs to be done to facilitate a transfer to electricity as the primary fuel source (just what's needed to run them, not what is required to build them) for vehicles I know it won't be in any of our lifetimes. Our system just isn't set up to do it. In fact, our system now hampers the kind of innovation needed for the kind of technological advancement called for! We can't afford to build the infrastructure either.

    Every civilization in recorded history has stagnated and failed to evolve at some key juncture in its existence. Modern civilization will most likely be no different and this energy change over will likely be that key juncture for modern civilization. Change is a comin' and me thinks it won't be for the better. Anybody noticing a recent trend to make travel more onerous and more expensive? Expect more of that as time goes by.

    Wow that was a long winded way to say that I'm a pessimist... Enjoy the ride!

    Seawolf1090 likes this.
  14. Minuteman

    Minuteman Chaplain Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    I just got back from a trip to Delhi, India. I was remarking to my driver at how clean the air seemed to be compared to other major 3rd world cities I have been in and he explained that it is the law that all commercial vehicles in the city must run on CNG. All of the 10's of thousands of taxis, the delivery trucks, buses, any non-private vehicle runs on NG. All the filling stations around the city have CNG fueling and the myriad of tuk-tuks (little 3 wheeled scooter taxis) have a tank like a propane bottle. They just whip into a station and swap out tanks and go. I was impressed. We could do the same thing in US cities. That is the bare bones of the "Pickens Plan" put forth by T. Boone Pickens to reduce our dependence on foreign oil.
    If a 3rd world country like India can do it we sure can too. My driver was telling me that gasoline was very expensive, it was up to 65 rupee's a gallon! That's about $1.40!
    hank2222, Gator 45/70 and Brokor like this.
  15. ghrit

    ghrit Bad company Administrator Founding Member

    Love them tuk-tuks. In Bangkok, they use gas and make smoke.
  16. Kingfish

    Kingfish Self Reliant

    Google Forkenswift. Two kids took an old Geo Metro and used parts from a Fork lift and built an electric car that went like 27 miles on one charge using old worn batteries. The point is , if these kids could make a conversion kit that worked for under a grand why cant I buy one right now with a 50 mile range and 40 mph speeds for under 5 grand? But No---- I have to buy the 33 thousand dollar Leaf or the 22 thousand dollar Think City. Its a freaking joke. It can be done right now for much less then the car companies will do it for. We need a crash like we had in the real estate market. Like a Corvette for 10 grand. Ill never pay over 10 grand for a car again. Kingfish
    Brokor likes this.
  17. Seawolf1090

    Seawolf1090 Retired Curmudgeonly IT Monkey Founding Member

    The problem is, the industry has taken the $15,000 to $20,000 price range as 'entry level'. Any fairly decent car is going to run thirty grand or more. Also, the Soccer Moms and Softball Dads want ALL the options! We need a whole new 'paradigm' (God, never thought I'd have a use for that word....) in auto technology and pricing. We also need to get the Unions out of it. THEN, we could get car pricing back to a realistic level.
    Kingfish likes this.
  18. Kingfish

    Kingfish Self Reliant

    The problem is the industry[beer]. They have this Idea that all cars have to cost 20 grand. This is where we need the next Henry Ford with his new Electric Model T. 8999.00 OUT THE DOOR. Goes 50 miles at 50 mph. Battery life 5 years. replacement cost 1200.00 or less. Thats about the same cost as an automatic transmission replacement on most gas cars. Yup , the industry is the problem. They just will not do what we want or what I want anyway. Soccer moms want seating for 8 and all the whistles. But a frugal man like me wants 50 miles for a 1.30 . Kingfish
  19. Seawolf1090

    Seawolf1090 Retired Curmudgeonly IT Monkey Founding Member

    I want the ergonomics of the Prius (it actually fits us big guys!), the reliability and simplicity of a '67 VW Bug, and the price of an '89 Geo Metro, seating for four (and the rear two can be 'cozy')........

    Yeah, I'm dreaming. :rolleyes:
  20. BTPost

    BTPost Stumpy Old Fart Snow Monkey Moderator

    Get yourself one of those electric BigBoys... and put a cab on it, with two seats in the dump-bed. 4X4 Independent Drive, 50 Mile range @ 25 MPH.... $13K NEW.... Buy yourself a Honda 3000i Genset and a OutBack MX80 Charge Controller, to put in the dump-bed, when your only hauling two people, and you will have the worlds cheapest Hybrid Vehicle. This isn't rocket science, and is even OTS.... (Off the Shelf) Little chilly in the winter time, but it will get you there and back..... ....... YMMV....
    Gator 45/70 and hank2222 like this.
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