Electric vehicles

Discussion in 'Peak Oil' started by hank2222, May 16, 2018.

  1. hank2222

    hank2222 Monkey+++

    here the one common thinking on them among most people that they are not that good .but if you travel outside the United States they are more common than you think plus you diff versions of them and how the country in question use them .in Switzerland I saw the little cars that where beening used by mom and dad to go to work or go shopping in them .it was strange to find the one car the Renault twizy electric vehicle very well liked there in Europe
    It can be drive in two version -1-version is design for young drivers from 13 to 14 year old bracket with bracket your kid only needs a scooter license to drive it around-plus given the fact the car goes 25 miles per hour as it top speed .the second version is the full power version that can do up 70 miles a hour
    Plus given the fact about we are a gas and diesel fuel nation it hard for the electric vehicle market here in the states .but it coming to us where we like it or not as my dad used to
    Do you know the most People travel only 25 miles in circle from there house here in the u.s.that shopping or working or doing most things in our lives that we do
    sec_monkey, Gator 45/70 and HK_User like this.
  2. oil pan 4

    oil pan 4 Monkey+++

    Nothing wrong with them, they just don't work for a lot of people.
    Or people don't understand the limitations of 120v charging and think they are going to run down the battery most of the way, come home at night plug it in and have it fully charged by first thing in the morning.
  3. Bandit99

    Bandit99 Monkey+++ Site Supporter+

    I could never understand why we went to the 120v system anyway... most of the rest of the world is 220v/240v.
  4. oil pan 4

    oil pan 4 Monkey+++

    The standard house hold 220v plug is usually breakered at 13 amps or less.
    And it's normal to have an entire house ran on 2 to 4 breakers over seas.
    So you wouldn't be able to plug in and get full 6.6kw charging power or even semi slow 3.3kw leaf charging with a regular plug in.
    Because of our electrical code it actually is much easier to adapt an existing homes electrical systems to faster charge an electric vehicle.
    Some homes will need service upgrades and rewire jobs costing thousands but most shouldn't.
  5. Tempstar

    Tempstar Old and crochety Site Supporter+

    My friend has one of the first Tesla sedans, waited almost a year on it. He had me run a 220 circuit for him and bought the big charger. 120v took 24 hours from empty, 220v takes 8 hours. He gets 500+ miles on the charge. Also, it's amazing to drive: Torque is 100% from the start and with traction control off it would fry the tires off the rims if you wanted to. Electric is the future without a doubt.
    Dark Wolf, Zimmy, 3cyl and 3 others like this.
  6. TnAndy

    TnAndy Senior Member Founding Member

    Had it been up to Edison, you'd be on DC.
  7. HK_User

    HK_User A Productive Monkey is a Happy Monkey

    Household plugs start at 30 amps, welder plugs are 50 amps.
    All homes in this area 250,000 sq miles have 220vac.
    Smaller homes have 100 amp service.
    Most have 200 amp service.
    sec_monkey, Gator 45/70 and hank2222 like this.
  8. Thunder5Ranch

    Thunder5Ranch Monkey+++

    When/If they come up with something that pull a 8 ton load up hills on 200 mile round trips and is comparable in price to my diesel trucks I might consider a EV. If I didn't live rural and work my trucks to death and just ran around one town it would be a viable choice. Until then it is Dodge and Long Block Diesels for me. I somehow don't think these EVs are going to be on the road, working hard 6 days per week for 20 years solid like my 2500 and 3500 Laramies have. Could be wrong but I am just not seeing the technology at present being that durable.
  9. oil pan 4

    oil pan 4 Monkey+++

    There are 15 and 20 amp 240v plugs.
    I made a nema 6-20 with 12 gauge for my leaf. Plus I have a little 240v powered 9'' grinder, spot welder some lights that use 240v power on 6-15 and 6-20 plugs.
    My plasma cutter and 240v air compressors all use 3 prong dryer nema 10-30.

    Electric vehicles will likely never replace all liquid fuel vehicles.
    No one said you have to get rid of your internal combustion engine vehicles if you buy an electric. I'm keeping my diesel truck. With $4 a gallon diesel on the horizon I'm not going to feel bad about leaving it parked either.
  10. DKR

    DKR Raconteur of the first stripe

    My son bought a used Nissan Leaf.

    At work they have a full power changing station he can use - for $5 a month.

    Several businesses have low cost or free full power charring stations in his neighborhood.

    The Leaf is used as a 'second' car to commute to work. Seems to work just fine for him and how he had envisioned his use of it.

    Since he is in Texas, he can set the thing to charge at home after 1Am and basically get paid by the power for doing that.
    Zimmy, 3cyl, sec_monkey and 2 others like this.
  11. oil pan 4

    oil pan 4 Monkey+++

    I'm in an electric coop, they only have 2 houses with solar panels, mine will likely be the third.
    I guess I should ask if they have any electric car encouragement.
    I know they encourage solar panels $0 down and $0 extra per month to install a co-Gen meter and they pay retail rate when you sell power to them.
    Last edited: May 17, 2018
    sec_monkey and hank2222 like this.
  12. HK_User

    HK_User A Productive Monkey is a Happy Monkey

    I have a Zero EV Motorcycle, Since I purchased it at the right time and use it exclusively on the Ranch it is a EV Tax Deduction. State sales tax was returned, again Ranch use.
    The Fast Charge unit was purchased as required by the State on a separate EV invoice so it too had a Tax deduction of its own.
    It charges from either 120 or 220. always ready to go, no noise, no gas and can be charged from my truck 120 outlet.

    I like it, it does what I need and does it quietly, even the local kids have learned I might be any place at any time. Never caught one on the place but I have rode up on them on the dirt roads. They were surprised as the Deer. The drive belt needs to be run at - spec tension or it makes more noise than a chain.

    What I don't like is the requirement of the lights being on all the time it is turned on.

    Zero make a cop bike with a "Lights on/off" control but they will not sell it to civilians.

    Crash bars, different foot pegs and side stand is all I added for my use.

    Crash Bars are great design as they give you the space to get under the bike to lift it up with your legs with your back to the bike.
  13. HK_User

    HK_User A Productive Monkey is a Happy Monkey

    Stand Back, they are on the way.
    EV Semi Trucks to Take Share From Traditional Long-Hail Diesel Trucks
    sec_monkey and hank2222 like this.
  14. HK_User

    HK_User A Productive Monkey is a Happy Monkey

    Because we use a neutral and a hot. 220/240 uses two hots.
    Crazier still is the 3 phase use in older parts of some cities that have what is called a Freak Leg.
    Hook it up wrong and you kill an electric device by under loading one leg.
    Bandit99 and hank2222 like this.
  15. HK_User

    HK_User A Productive Monkey is a Happy Monkey

    High-leg delta
    High-leg delta - Wikipedia

    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    High-leg delta (also known as wild-leg, stinger leg, bastard leg, high-leg, orange-leg, or red-leg delta) is a type of electrical service connection for three-phase electric power installations. It is used when both single and three-phase power is desired to be supplied from a three phase transformer (or transformer bank). The three-phase power is connected in the delta configuration, and the center point of one phase is grounded. This creates both a split-phase single phase supply (L1 or L2 to neutral on diagram at right) and three-phase (L1-L2-L3 at right). It is called "orange leg" because when it is connected per the NEC, the high leg is marked with orange "outer finish...or other effective means"[1] (usually tape). By convention, the high leg is usually set in the center (B phase) lug in the involved panel, regardless of the L1-L2-L3 designation at the transformer.


    Center-tapped delta transformer

    Center-tapped delta transformer voltages
    High-leg delta service is supplied in one of two ways. One is by a transformer having four wires coming out of the secondary, the three phases, plus a neutral connected as a center-tap on one of the windings. Another method requires two transformers. One transformer is connected to one phase of the overhead primary distribution circuit to provide the 'lighting' side of the circuit (this will be the larger of the two transformers), and a second transformer is connected to another phase on the circuit and its secondary is connected to one side of the 'lighting' transformer secondary, and the other side of this transformer is brought out as the 'high leg'. The voltages between the three phases are the same in magnitude, however the voltage magnitudes between a particular phase and the neutral vary. The phase-to-neutral voltage of two of the phases will be half of the phase-to-phase voltage. The remaining phase-to-neutral voltage will be √3/2 the phase-to-phase voltage. So if A-B, B-C and C-A are all 240 volts, then A-N and C-N will both be 120 volts, but B-N will be 208 volts.

    Other types of three-phase supplies are wye connections, ungrounded delta connections, "ghost" leg configuration delta connections (two transformers supplying three phase power), or corner-grounded delta[2] connections. These connections do not supply split single-phase power, and do not have a high leg.


    Phasor diagram showing 240V delta and center-tapped phase (a-c) creating 120V voltages.
    Consider the low-voltage side of a 120/240 V high leg delta connected transformer, where the 'b' phase is the 'high' leg. The line-to-line voltage magnitudes are all the same:

    V a b = V b c = V c a = 240 V . {\displaystyle V_{ab}=V_{bc}=V_{ca}=240\,{\text{V}}.} [​IMG]
    Because the winding between the 'a' and 'c' phases is center-tapped, the line-to-neutral voltages for these phases are as follows:

    V a n = V c n = V a c 2 = 120 V . {\displaystyle V_{an}=V_{cn}={\frac {V_{ac}}{2}}=120\,{\text{V}}.} [​IMG]
    But the phase-neutral voltage for the 'b' phase is different:

    V b n = V a b 2 − V a n 2 ≈ 208 V . {\displaystyle V_{bn}={\sqrt {{V_{ab}}^{2}-{V_{an}}^{2}}}\approx 208\,{\text{V}}.} [​IMG]
    This can be proven by writing a KVL equation, using angle notation, starting from the grounded neutral:

    0 + 120 ∠ 0 ∘ + 240 ∠ 120 ∘ = 0 + 120 ∠ 0 ∘ + 240 ( − 0.5 ) ∠ 0 ∘ + 240 3 2 ∠ 90 ∘ = 0 + 120 ∠ 0 ∘ − 120 ∠ 0 ∘ + 240 3 2 ∠ 90 ∘ = 240 3 2 ∠ 90 ∘ = 120 3 ∠ 90 ∘ , {\displaystyle {\begin{aligned}&0+120\angle 0^{\circ }+240\angle 120^{\circ }\\={}&0+120\angle 0^{\circ }+240(-0.5)\angle 0^{\circ }+240{\frac {\sqrt {3}}{2}}\angle 90^{\circ }\\={}&0+120\angle 0^{\circ }-120\angle 0^{\circ }+240{\frac {\sqrt {3}}{2}}\angle 90^{\circ }\\={}&240{\frac {\sqrt {3}}{2}}\angle 90^{\circ }=120{\sqrt {3}}\angle 90^{\circ },\end{aligned}}} [​IMG]

    0 + 120 sin ⁡ ( 0 ∘ ) + 240 sin ⁡ ( 120 ∘ ) = 0 + 0 + 240 3 2 ≈ 207.8. {\displaystyle 0+120\sin(0^{\circ })+240\sin(120^{\circ })=0+0+240{\frac {\sqrt {3}}{2}}\approx 207.8.} [​IMG]
    If the "high leg" is not used, the system acts like a split single-phase system, which is familiar.

    Both three-phase and single split-phase power can be supplied from a single transformer bank.

    Where the three-phase load is small relative to the total load, two individual transformers may be used instead of the three for a "full delta" or a three-phase transformer, thus providing a variety of voltages at reduced cost. This is called "open-delta high-leg", and has a reduced capacity relative to a full delta.[3][4][5]

    In cases where the single-phase load is much greater than the three-phase load, load balancing will be poor. Generally, these cases are identified by three transformers supplying the service, two of which are sized significantly smaller than the third, and the third larger transformer will be center tap grounded.

    One of the phase-to-neutral voltage (usually phase "B") is higher than the other two. The hazard of this is that if single phase loads are connected to the high leg (with the connecting person unaware that that leg is higher voltage), excess voltage is supplied to that load. This can easily cause failure of the load.

    Commonly there is a high-leg to neutral load limit when only two transformers are used.[6] One transformer manufacturer's page suggests that High-leg to neutral loading to not exceed 5% of transformer capacity.[7]

    It is often found in older and rural installations. This type of service is usually supplied using 240 V line-to-line and 120 V line-to-neutral. In some ways, the high leg delta service provides the best of both worlds: a line-to-line voltage that is higher than the usual 208 V that most three-phase services have, and a line-to-neutral voltage (on two of the phases) sufficient for connecting appliances and lighting. Thus, large pieces of equipment will draw less current than with 208 V, requiring smaller wire and breaker sizes. Lights and appliances requiring 120 V can be connected to phases 'A' and 'C' without requiring an additional step-down transformer.

    Even when unmarked, it is generally easy to identify this type of system, because the "B" phase (circuits #3 and #4) and every third circuit afterwards will be either a three-pole breaker or a blank.

    Current practice is to give separate services for single-phase and three-phase loads, e.g., 120 V split-phase (lighting etc.) and 240 V to 600 V three-phase (for large motors). However, many jurisdictions forbid more than one class for a premises' service, and the choice may come down to 120/240 split-phase, 208 single-phase or three-phase (delta), 120/208 three-phase (wye), or 277/480 three-phase (wye) (or 347/600 three-phase (wye) in Canada
    sec_monkey and hank2222 like this.
  16. oil pan 4

    oil pan 4 Monkey+++

    I would just get 120/208 3 phase.
    Keep it simple.
    That's only if I find a 12 to 15kw or higher external DC fast charger that isn't a few thousand dollars.
    I can go up to 10 to 12kw on single phase 240v.
    hank2222 likes this.
  17. HK_User

    HK_User A Productive Monkey is a Happy Monkey

    Not a choice in some areas of older cities, mostly in heavy industry areas. It was designed to save wiring for more than one type system.
    hank2222 likes this.
  18. Cruisin Sloth

    Cruisin Sloth Special & Slow

    We WERE 120/240 @ 25 Hz in the 50's Talk about frequency wink ....
    As long as you balance the board and use 240Vac on all large units and anything that is a hardwire in , then were still the same . But IN some places they use 2 phase (Nuts & a waste , 3 Phase is the best for huge power as long as it is balanced in factor form .
    I see ^^^ there that is grid power or large gensets that are in Syscro modes .

    This has nothing to do with the EV / cars on battery .. SQUAT , EV are another system of DC power to phase shifting ..

    sec_monkey and hank2222 like this.
  19. Bandit99

    Bandit99 Monkey+++ Site Supporter+

    Yeah, I know. Good thing Tesla was around...much to Edison's demise. LOL!
  20. Thunder5Ranch

    Thunder5Ranch Monkey+++

    Gator 45/70, sec_monkey and hank2222 like this.
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