Discussion in 'General Survival and Preparedness' started by Waydah, Oct 7, 2019.

  1. Waydah

    Waydah Monkey

    If I were a nation with a limited ability to directly confront an enemy, but had a basic nuclear capability to include launching a warhead with a missile, or a much better abled antagonist who wants to take the easy route in diminishing an enemy without using all of its own military assets, lofting a nuke to effect an EMP strike would be the way I would go.

    EMPs and CMEs have been a topic both in prep sites and now in the MSM of late. The point I would present is simply this.... should this ever occur, either man-caused or natural, we will NOT find ourselves back into an Eighteenth Century existence and so many state. We will be back into the Twelfth Century existence... if we are lucky. The Eighteenth Century will look like modern times at that point. We will not have the knowledge, the skills, the tools, the transportation, or the shelters that enabled those in the Eighteenth Century to survive and flourish.
    Lancer, Gafarmboy, Zimmy and 3 others like this.
  2. techsar

    techsar Monkey+++

    Perhaps it would be a good idea to start acquiring the knowledge, the skills....etc and adding them to your repertoire ;)

    I know many others have...
  3. apache235

    apache235 Monkey+++

    Knowledge, the most difficult to pack, but the easiest to carry - and it will save your life.
    Yard Dart, chelloveck and techsar like this.
  4. duane

    duane Monkey+++

    Sad but true, it might take generations if everything went well to get from the 12 th century, which was far below that of the 5 th in much of the western world after the fall of Rome, and back up to the 18 th. We have no real idea about the CME's, the early experience with the Carrington one occurred when we didn't even have ways to measure it and only telegraph and rail lines for long distance conductors. We have no idea how often or how severe they might be.
    sec_monkey and Homer Simpson like this.
  5. BTPost

    BTPost Stumpy Old Fart,Deadman Walking, Snow Monkey Moderator

    Exactly, 95% of what we KNOW about EMP, comes from the EMP Effects from the first Hydrogen Bomb Detonations... Since there have been No Above ground detonations since, most of what we think we know is mostly extrapolation, and pure speculation... Anyone who tells you different, is full of BS...
  6. Zimmy

    Zimmy Wait, I'm not ready!

    Start with old, medieval, and primitive skills still relative to hygiene, food preservation, and water purification.

    Without those, you'll be dead before you learn herbal remedies, foraging, and gardening. Focus on them next.

    You don't want to have a dead wife, the whole family delirious, and you surrendering your freedom, weapons, and preps for the promise of something as simple as an anti-fever remedy to save the lot of you.
  7. Bandit99

    Bandit99 Monkey+++ Site Supporter+

    @Waydah "We will not have the knowledge, the skills, the tools, the transportation, or the shelters that enabled those in the Eighteenth Century to survive and flourish."

    I don't think we'll be back in the 18th, more like the late 1800s or early 1900s (pre-WW1) but call it the 19th century to be safe.

    And, we'll have a hell'va lot more knowledge than those people did back in the 18th in ALL disciplines: Science, Medical, Agricultural, Metallurgy - everything. The trick will be to retaining it, since it is all stored on fried computers...but the libraries contain the knowledge of the world, right, so overnight they will become a houseful of treasure.

    But, yes, overnight anything running on electricity will be - busted, broke, fried - so any electric tools, transportation, communications - gone. And, the real stinker is the capability to produce repair parts or new products will be gone also and we'll have to fix that before anything else.

    Yet, given all this, I think it could be done in 20 years depending, of course, if we receive assistance and if lawlessness doesn't get out of hand and can be contained, and that is only one of the unknown variables. What about if after 10-15 years of Marshal Law the US government doesn't think it would be in the best interest of its people to return to Democracy? What about if we are attacked in our weak state by Mexico or some of the heavies like China, India and Russia and now we're trying to rebuild and fight a war at the same time? What if states really don't see the sense in trying to save the government (since it's a pile of corruption) nor the country (since it's divided politically and by ideology), since it is so far gone anyway - so - they assume regional alliances and/or pseudo/new countries. On and on and on...

    BTW @BTPost is correct. We really don't know for certain what will happen during an EMP...even the simplest thing like how many cars will be left operating 0%, 20%, ?%
  8. Wildbilly

    Wildbilly Monkey+++

    It depends upon if you are a prepper or not. If I have time to complete my plans, I will have a house, working septic system, weapons, silver and gold, food, seed, livestock, fuel, generators, tractors, solar panels, working vehicles, electric and hand tools, electronics, stills, well with spare pump, water filters, propane heaters, wood stoves, etc.. I have over half now, and if SHTF tomorrow I could "acquire" much of the rest. Granted I would have to maintain a very low profile, if I wanted to keep any of it. Hell, I might be able to stay in the 20th Century!
    BlueDuck and Zimmy like this.
  9. Tempstar

    Tempstar Monkey+++

    Not really accurate. The US and USSR detonated nukes on test towers above ground until the test ban treaty in the early '60's. China detonated above ground until 1990 or so. I also did some work for a place that simulated free air EMP to test hardened electronic equipment. We actually know a lot. We know there are 3 waves of electomagnetic energy produced, and we know they follow the same rules of physics as radio or other waves on the electromagnetic spectrum in that they lose energy following the same Free Space Path Loss. The widely held belief that a detonation in the ionosphere over the center of the US would kill all of our electronics is pure bunk. The very short waves of the three electromagnetic pulse events would have so little power left at ground level as to damage very little. Radio equipment would also not suffer much unless the antenna for the equipment was resonant on the bands of the electromagnetic pulses.
    Many of our above ground tests in the fifties involved animals and even people at various ranges from a blast, from one to five miles. Radio equipment at the time was tube based but only experienced static at those ranges and no damage. Our latter tests used spectrum analysis equipment which did have transistors and antennas built to receive on the bands emitted and also survived. Also we learned that radio waves travel on the surface of a conductor , not through it as electricity does, which is how a Faraday cage works. Actually being lucky enough to see some of the shielding used and methods of antenna attenuation to the specific frequency bands produced taught me that an ammo can with a radio in it is plenty safe unless it is at ground zero. And it does not have to be grounded as the waves will travel over the surface and it effectively becomes invisible to those waves.
    Sorry for the rant, it's just that I spent the 90's obsessed with this topic..
    techsar, TnAndy, Ganado and 5 others like this.
  10. Lancer

    Lancer TANSTAFL! Site Supporter+++

    We won't have the 16th or 17th century infrastructure. Even in Roman times there was an infrastructure - those huge clay amphorae used as shipping containers were produced by an infrastructure, as were the wooden wheels for animal drawn transport. We won't have any of it.
    Just one of the reasons I collect the old hand tools. Helping the local historical society with things such as barn risings, (post & beam structures), learning to make a safe and clean dug well, shaping and laying field stone walls and foundations, how to build and use a root cellar, even how to cut and put up hay for the winter. All those skills will be critical if you want to survive much past the initial die off.
    Zimmy likes this.
  11. 3M-TA3

    3M-TA3 Cold Wet Monkey

    Your tax dollars at work: Homepage

    Some findings, short version is electronics with antennas are vulnerable as is the power grid. You car will probably not be affected.

    CME's are a whole nuther subject. If an EMP is an easy bake oven a CME is a blast furnace.
    Solar storm of 1859 - Wikipedia

    Depending on location and severity a CME could be a disaster.

    Communities like the Amish wouldn't even notice until hungry hoards showed up at their doorsteps. To see what it takes to survive without electricity study these types of groups. IMO it boils down to teamwork, hard work, skills, tools, and knowledge.
    chelloveck and Zimmy like this.
  12. arleigh

    arleigh Goophy monkey

    I might tend to disagree with the OP .
    we do know how to take what we have and make repairs it is just amatter of reverse engineering some things like resistors and diodes . most every thing else is mechanics the chemistry does not change the means to replicate things may take time but life still goes on. .
    So for a while, alternate fuel sources are implemented, we already know how to make many gasses our forefathers had no clue of. .
    It would not take much time for people to learn how to do things seeing other people succeed at something. I guarantee you that if my neighbor sees me driving my truck and finds that I am running it on methane, what do you think he is going to do but try and learn my process. there you go a marketable product post SHTF,
    What electrical have not been burnt in a CME will be put to work as soon as electrical production is restored as individuals or learn to drive things with internal combustion engines or steam or the many other means of making rotation power.
    1860s a man-made a solar dish and powered a printing press with steam.
    You mean to tell me you couldn't do that?
    Necessity is the mother of invention, find what is necessary and act on it.
    I think the world will change another way than the way it runs currently, maybe better may be less convenient but may be more practical in some ways.
    I am concerned for my solar panels and windmills but then again these things can be repaired and replaced over time. I have a few put in faraday cage but not the volume I have working for me now.
    Want an EMP-proof refrigerator, get a gas unit and be done with it.
    The idea here is not to wait for the last minute to get something or learn something or start reading books, but to learn now and do now and prep now with the alternatives before the grid goes down.
    A while back I learned about ram pumps and I wanted to disprove the theory even though I saw one working on you tube.so I invested and built one my self and proved it works.
    Since then I have been able to share it with others that actually need the process.
    all this knowledge is right here right now I have also made a methane digester, and soon I will make other things like alcohol and I would like to make calcium carbide as well as oxygen production, and making my own batteries.
    All this knowledge is right here right now.
    But if the info is locked up in the computer and it has been fried you got nothin.
    Zimmy likes this.
  13. Seacowboys

    Seacowboys Senior Member Founding Member

    A friend recently had difficulty in getting a plumber to come replace a leaking drain pipe in her wall and I told her that I would bring my tools by in a day or two, if she couldn't get it fixed. I followed through and replaced her pipe, stopped the leaks and repaired the drywall. She said the most peculiar thing to me. "I can't believe you did that!"..so I asked her why? and she said that so many say they will do something and either do not follow through or even worse, don't know how to do it and end up making a bigger mess. It never occurred to me that someone would offer to do something and not know how to actually do it. Learn every skill set available.
  14. Waydah

    Waydah Monkey

    I am not nearly as optimistic as some of you. Granted, there may be 'islands' of innovation in a Mad Max sort of way that mimic what once was. For every person with "skills" there will be tens of thousands without any useful skills at all. They will either perish, (and maybe most will) or be taken up into some feudal/tribal society and survive by taking from others. The Renaissance Man will be a rare commodity, and surviving in a teeming sea of desperate people will be a tenuous existence.
    Zimmy likes this.
  15. Seacowboys

    Seacowboys Senior Member Founding Member

    My partner asked why I would want to live through a TEOTWAWKI and all I could say was that I didn't know how to quit.
    VisuTrac, techsar, Ganado and 4 others like this.
  16. Illini Warrior

    Illini Warrior Illini Warrior

    a CME is possibly the perfect example of an initial SHTF getting more serious and the recovery longevity extending because of other SHTFs compounding & associated igniting ...
    the US can get the grid up & going and get the transportation issues resolved - but it would take the public's patient & confidence & willing cooperation >>> something highly unlikely to happen ...
    an area wouldn't ever recover from a hurricane if it was Mad Max time - and that's exactly what the country would be facing ...
  17. Seawolf1090

    Seawolf1090 Retired Curmudgeonly IT Monkey Founding Member

    Fema buses will take the unskilled to provide slave labor for the elitists in the cities and estates.
    The Amish will do okay, unless the bandits kill them.
  18. Illini Warrior

    Illini Warrior Illini Warrior

    more likely FEMA will be evaking the cities out to designated refugee centers - if you ever heard about the post Katrina AstroDome fiasco you can get an idea how bad it can get - and that was under fairly normal conditions ....
    3M-TA3 likes this.
  19. Waydah

    Waydah Monkey

    FEMA will be doing next to nothing. How can they? There will be no buses taking anyone anywhere. They likely will not be running, and if they are, where will the fuel come from? Most everything is now delivered by trucks. They won't be running either. Imagine 500 Katrinas at the same time. Do you really thing FEMA will ride to the rescue?

    The Russians conducted an EMP experiment back in 1962. Its results were far more damaging than even they thought. Any bets they have honed that asset since?
  20. Bandit99

    Bandit99 Monkey+++ Site Supporter+

    @Tempstar "Sorry for the rant, it's just that I spent the 90's obsessed with this topic..."
    Hell, that's not a rant. That's just sharing knowledge that you have a deep interest and experience with...and frankly it's one of the major purposes of this forum. Thanks!

    @Seacowboys "...and all I could say was that I didn't know how to quit."
    I have come to the conclusion that nothing else in my life has caused me so much pain as not knowing how to quit. I now see it as a character defect, major flaw at times, and try to use logic instead of the excessive amount of hard-headed stubbornness I was born with...but I am seldom successful at least not often enough. LOL!

    @Waydah "I am not nearly as optimistic as some of you...The Renaissance Man will be a rare commodity, and surviving in a teeming sea of desperate people will be a tenuous existence."
    I wouldn't say I am optimistic, I am just not quite as pessimistic as you but I freely admit the pessimism is a good thing, a life saving thing so...so I will plan and prep as a pessimist. I have no doubt the hungry hordes will come and the choice will be to feed'em or fight'em. I have no doubt what will occur will make Bosnia or Uganda nightmares look like a children's playground in comparison. I just think, that in the end, after the die off, that rebuilding will come faster because we aren't reinventing the wheel. We have the knowledge - hell - just knowing something can be done, that it is possible, is a major part of the battle.
    Ganado likes this.
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  9. Lancer

    EMP theory 2018-04-11

    Stumbled across this while looking for old schematics.
    Posted By: Lancer, Apr 11, 2018 in category: Communications
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