Discussion in 'General Survival and Preparedness' started by Popcorn, Mar 17, 2013.

  1. Popcorn

    Popcorn Monkey

    About four month ago we had saved enough to finally purchase a solar and wind generator 1800watt with deep cell batteries. 4 - 100 amp hours. I am former Intell Analyst with the USAFSS from 1964-74 then retrained and retired in 1983. I have also study the solar activity for years. After purchasing the off grid emergency generator with solar panels and wind turbine seperately, I started making the faraday cages to protect them and other electronics we wanted to save from an emp or cme. I have had electical experiance so I built a cage of 2" x 2" wood framing, with wood flooring and shelving in them. Large enough for the entire generator, panels, the electonic part of the turbine, emergency radios, CB's. FM Tansievers, battery chargers 110volt and solar, all our rechargable batteries, chainsaw guts, and other items needed if a masjor emp or cme occurs. Always making sure none touched the metal cage. Styrafoam , or carboard or non conductive material can be used on the inside, although it is not needed as long as nothing touches any part of the screening on the inside. I surrounded the 2 x 2 wood frame with normal metal screen used for screen doors, all metal no paint on it, then stapled it to the wood. Where I had a door I wrapped the 2 x 2 with screening and stapled it down. I personally put them above the ground on two desks. After insuring the screening was all encompassing, I ran a thick copper ground (AGW 3 or 4) outside to a 4 foot deep grounding rod. (our area has damp dirt year round at about two feet deep. If you are in a dryer area the grounding rod must be deep enough to be in damp soil. The ground for the generator while being charged once a month with regular electricity is conntected through the wire by a punched hole and on the inside a metal conductive tube that has a screw on each end to screw tight the copper gounding wire. That way if you know a emp or cme is coming in you disconect the ground until the event is over. So all was well, then about three days ago I was watching:
    Apocalypse 101 on TV and they built the same exact faraday cage I did, and put a radio inside then closed the lid and the radio stopped receiving the wave. So it works as I thought it would.
    If you have an all metal car where it will be a conductive item, IT HAS BEEN SAID, NOT CONFIRMED that I know of, if you have a ground like the faraday cage I built, then make contact with the matel frame it also is a faraday cage. It is suggested that if you know an emp or cme is coming in to take the battery out and put it in the other faraday cages. This one I do not know about for sure or not, but if the wave will run around the outside of the car to the ground wire, it might work.
    Thought you might like to know this really does work as far as the faraday cage I built for the generator and other items.
    Mindgrinder, kellory and BTPost like this.
  2. BTPost

    BTPost Stumpy Old Fart,Deadman Walking, Snow Monkey Moderator

    Couple of things that you should understand, about EMP, and CME Events.... NO ONE KNOWS exactly, how much damage, or what will cause Damage, from either of these kinds of Events. It is, at BEST, Educated Guesses, and MOSTLY, WildAss Guesses, and mostly from folks that have NEVER even SEEN, the Original Research, done by the folks that know the MOST about the Issue. Faraday Cages, are nothing new. They have been around for decades, what is NEW, is 90% of the Electronics we take for granted today, as NONE of it was around, the LAST TIME, an actual Hydrogen Bomb (Fusion Bomb, and ONLY a Fusion Bomb can create an EMP) was set off in the Atmosphere. As for CMEs causing Issues, the REALLY Big Ones that MAY cause an Issue are so Rare, again 90% of the electronics wasn't invented yet, when the last one, was SPECULATED to have caused an Issue. I say Speculated, because NO ONE can PROVE, FULLY, that the CME was the cause. The Educated Guess folks try and MODEL, what they think is going on, as best that can be extrapolated, from the very LITTLE REAL Empirical Data that has been accumulated, from the few events, that have happened in the past, and then make educated guesses as to what t would take to Isolate modern systems from such an Event, based on those Models. The WildAssed Guess Crowd, are just that... Making WildAssed Guesses as to what they think MIGHT happen, with NOTHING in the way or REAL Data to back up their WildAssed Guesses, but PURE BS. These are the guys you see on YouTube, and the Nightly News. Basically nothing but Talking Heads, that do NOT have CLUE ONE, about what they are saying, and just repeating what they were told by mostly other folks who are also in the WildAssed Guess Crowd. A Metal car is NOT, and Faraday Cage, or even close to it, even if Grounded, or some other useless Dream. Your cage is good, but would be considerably better and significantly Higher in Isolation, if you then buried in with at least 1 foot of compact Dirt over the Top. Both EMP and CME Energy travel along the Ground, but do NOT penetrate into the ground very deep at all. that Foot of dirt does more to increase the isolation, that most of the screening, on your Cage. the other thing you need to look at, is the Mesh Size of the Screening, and the Conductivity of the Screening Material. Steel does not make good Screening material. Most of the good Cages are made of Copper Screening with .001 or less Mesh, with 1-2" soldered or Spot Welded LapJoints, along any Seems. As well as very Special Conductive Door Joints, and those Seems. Remember both of these type Energies, when they are present, are VERY WideBand, going from 1 Hz clear up thru Inferred, and Ultraviolet EMF Spectrum, with MASSIVE Power Densities. Nothing like a NICE LEAD Box, to make a Faraday Cage, out of...... ...... YMMV....
  3. Popcorn

    Popcorn Monkey

    The last CME was the Carrington Event in 1859. A large CME has proved what can happend. It was large enough to get here in a couple of hours compared to the normal two days. It fried all telegraph, wires caught fire, men on the telegraph were knocked out. It is well know that if we have another Carrington Event that occur about every 100 years all electronics would be down, cars after 1968 would not work, electronic ignitions, MSD, etc., anything using a computer would not work, all power grids not protected would be fried, etc, etc. So with the fact this has happend to this massive extent that is recorded, and in 2002 all of eastern Canada was shut down for two or three days by a very minor CME, and China was hit in between 2002 and 2010, can not remember the date, WHY NOT take the precaution of preperation when the cages do work? All you need is a grounded cage that will allow the waves to run around the cage to the ground and be gone.
    kellory and BTPost like this.
  4. BTPost

    BTPost Stumpy Old Fart,Deadman Walking, Snow Monkey Moderator

    Are you repeating what you may have read, or seen, from the internet or MSM? Or have you gone back and read the Original Research, in the Peer Reviewed Journals, that were published by the Resident Smart Guys, in the Fields? Don't get me wrong, here. I have my own Faraday Boxes that protect my Electronics Infrastructure, for the same reasons you do. I just want the FACTS, on these issues, KNOW, so others can try and get a handle on the Technologies involved. ..... YMMV....
  5. I used to be an engineer so I have some knowledge of this stuff but I'm no faraday cage expert, especially when it comes to a CME or EMP strike. I've done many years of work with RF though.

    @Popcorn. You mention something about connecting to the faraday cage because it's a ground. It's only a ground if you have it connected to an actual ground. A faraday cage doesn't protect electronics by pulling the current to ground as in normal electrical protection. RF travels on the skin of a conductor so a pulse would actually go around it. If something isn't actually inside the protective shell, it won't be protected from RF even if it's connected.

    Aso, as far as the battery's concerned, I don't really see much worry about having it inside a faraday cage. There's not enough of a conductor in it to induce much current, and if there is, your shield's gonna melt anyway. The wires to/from the battery would be a concern but really only if they're connected on both ends to something, although having it connected on one end can cause it to act like an antenna if the power's large enough and the length etc are resonant on some frequency or multiples of the frequencies it hits hit with.

    An EMP pulse works similarly to the way a transformer or RF antenna does. The power crosses a conductor and induces a current through it. No conductor; no current. A ground on a faraday cage can either be a blessing or a curse, depending on exactly how things work at the time (depending on how it's constructed and exactly what kind of pulse(s) it gets hit by. A faraday cage will protect electronics with or without a ground. A ground just pulls current from the box. In the case of the cage, it both conducts and reflects the current based on both the permeability and conductivity of the material. Having mesh instead of a solid shield, for instance, reduces current loop paths in the material itself, improving protection against EM. There shouldn't be much current to have to be pulled to ground, and in some cases, a ground could induce a current that wouldn't have happened in the first place.

    It sounds like you have a great design for your cage. In almost all cases, you don't need a lead bunker to protect your equipment. Certainly better protection if you do, but everything comes at a cost. A lead-shielded bunker costs time and money that'll take away from other preps. If you have unlimited time and money then it's the best way to go. I suggest just constantly improving your fighting position by building better and better EMP/CME protection as you have time and can afford it.
    Brokor likes this.
  6. Popcorn

    Popcorn Monkey

    I am not worried about the EMP pulse so much, I am more concerned about a CME.

    I am not concerned that much about an EMP, my major concern is a massive CME, we are overdue. As far as the cage goes it is permenantly grounded. I have the ground for the solar gen. that I can disconnect, since it is in the farday cage. I have a disconnet when I am not charging it or for use if I ever need it.
  7. Popcorn

    Popcorn Monkey

    Not at all it is all stuff I have known from the 70's when I started studying more about space and solar events. I was an amature astronomer for a long time. As many say our earth is in a very dangerous area. WE have peaked on our up - down ride throught our arm of the galaxy and are now dipping back through once again. We are alos entering an Intergalictic Energy Cloud that enhances solar and planet atmoshpherics. This stuff I hear from Michu Kokue (spelling) and another Scientist, just items to research and be aware of. Remember: "Knowledge is power, the lack of knowledge will enslave or destroy you."
    kellory and BTPost like this.
  8. Pax Mentis

    Pax Mentis Philosopher King |RIP 11-4-2017

    I seem to remember reading something about an air-burst nuclear test in the USSR (and possibly a US one in the Pacific) that demonstrated some of the effects...but with much smaller devices than are available now...
  9. BTPost

    BTPost Stumpy Old Fart,Deadman Walking, Snow Monkey Moderator

    Most US Nukes are less than 1 MegaTon yield weapons. The ones that brought the issue to the forfront were 10+ MegaTon devices. With the accuracy of modern ICBMs, it just isn't nessary to use those City Busters any more...
  10. Pistolero

    Pistolero Monkey++

    In Minneapolis the BNSF Railway Radio shack has a Faraday cage about 12 feet square in it. It is made from a copper mesh roughly the size of insect window screens but of a thicker woven mesh. It does not stop certain frequencys. I was able to talk to someone inside the cage from outside on some channels but not on others. that tells me that maybe this type of cage would not stop an EMP nor a solar event. That jives with what I have read, that the wave length of an EMP can be small enough that it would pass through most types of woven mesh. The author recommended a solid barrier instead. I am e sorry I cannot quote my source as I have read a lot on the subject and it seems I have about the same amount of opinions. I too wish we could have access to what research the gov. has but I am asuming they want to keep most of it secret.
    tulianr likes this.
  11. Popcorn

    Popcorn Monkey

    It depends on the wave the the size of mesh if that will stop the emp or cme wave, the grounding, and making sure there are no gaps in it. Copper is nice but very expensive. Regular wire mess for screen doors works well. The holes is so small I would guess that very few, if any wave lengths can get through. Just my thoughts. THis type of mesh if constructed properly will stop a CME wave. Oh another thought for consideration, if it is a very large CME we also get a Gamma Burst too, so take cover when it arrives. Then if it is out of sight large, goodbye all.
    Brokor likes this.
  12. Brokor

    Brokor Live Free or Cry Moderator Site Supporter+++ Founding Member

    For many years now, scientists have been expecting this April to be the due date for a CME. Naturally, one or more could occur at any time, but the 100-200 year solar activity is in its prime to start up again, and the 11 year solar cycle is also beginning this April. Great topic, we have a few discussions on this already. Lots of great input in this thread so far, I appreciate it. =)

    If I could afford it, I would use layered mesh of copper and also silver screen. The silver screen would be an alloy, but its conductive qualities would still be superior. Dual or further truncated screen layers would improve the coverage and seal any gaps, but like it has already been mentioned, this is somewhat speculative due to the circumstances.
  13. kellory

    kellory An unemployed Jester, is nobody's fool. Banned

    If a solid skin would be best, I have a roll of aluminum trim-coil that could be used to sheet the outer surface. Aluminum is used in wiring, and should be easy to work.
  14. BTPost

    BTPost Stumpy Old Fart,Deadman Walking, Snow Monkey Moderator

    Bonding Aluminum sheets together is problematic, in that aluminum oxidizes very readily in the Atmosphere, and leaves a layer of Aluminum Oxide, which is NOT a conductor. SO, just having an Lap Seem, will not make a solid layer. The same is true for any Screening made from aluminum wire. copper of silver are what the Big Boys use, in this application.
    Brokor likes this.
  15. Popcorn

    Popcorn Monkey

    You can get used galvanized ducting for furnaces in a house. It is wide enough to ba able to put cardboard or styrafoam insulation in it to keep items from touching the sides. You need to make sure it is sealed as best as you can, and the open end lid be the screening or another sheet of galvi with metal tape around it. on the edges. Then the cage must be grounded with AGW 3 or 4 to a grounding rod that reaches your year round damp soil depth.
    As for the screen one has to remember that even a small hole in the screen should not be a problem Electricity (CME) or this magnitude should take the path of least resistance. It would arc over the hole. Not that you want a hole in the screen. I do not worry to much about a seemingly loose fit as long as nothing inside is near the edges. If worried one can cut screeening to warp around the edges of that area.
    Take care. Knowledge is power the lack of knowledge will enslave or destroy you. AND The human race is a herd specie they want to be led without knowing they are being led. I always add, Watch out who you follow to make sure you are not one of the last buffalo off the edge of the cliff.
    Take care. Thanks for all the comments and knowledge.
  16. Brokor

    Brokor Live Free or Cry Moderator Site Supporter+++ Founding Member

    I wanted a nice idea on how to make a good Faraday cage, so all I had to do was open up my CF-28 and take a look at the hard drive. [winkthumb]

    Panasonic Toughbook CF-28
    Secure BIOS
    Windows XP Pro / Linux Mint 14 XFCE (dual boot)
    512MB SDRam 133 Mhz, 144 pin (one slot only, max 512)
    Removable bay: Swappable floppy or cd/dvd rom
    1 USB port
    CPU - Mobile PIII 1000MHz
    30 GB HD
    13.3" display, touchscreen
    32MB video
    Rubberized keyboard/touchpad
    Battery: Lithium-Ion
    Weight: 9.04 Lbs.
    Ruggedized, EMP proof, water resistant (waterproof to an extent)

    Pictures of Hard Drive with EMP resistance:

    toughbook_HD.JPG IPANA-CF28-CDY.
    kellory and BTPost like this.
  17. Popcorn

    Popcorn Monkey

    Great information, whatever works for those that understand that being prepared is just a state of mind and protection for you and yours. I was taught canning, gardening, meat canning, dry leguim saving, spices, etc. for years. I have to say walking into the basement makes me feel really good.
    Take care All.
  18. DMGoddess

    DMGoddess Monkey+++

    Attached Files:

  19. ghrit

    ghrit Bad company Administrator Founding Member

    Interesting. Note the aluminum screening. Note also that it tested only one very narrow range of rf signal spectra. While that should work for longer rf waves, shorter ones could still sneak thru the mesh, much in the same way that normal concrete and steel construction will interfere with VHF radio frequencies, but not so much with UHF. The test also points to the need for a ground; I think that theoretically a ground is not necessary tho' desirable. Worth watching the developments.
    kellory and BTPost like this.
  20. BTPost

    BTPost Stumpy Old Fart,Deadman Walking, Snow Monkey Moderator

    Ok Just a FEW NOTES, here:
    1. Aluminum Screen is NOT used in REAL EMP Proof Faraday Cages for a good Reason. Aluminum oxidizes on it's surfaces to Aluminum Oxide, which is NONConductive. So this makes LAP Seems in the Aluminum Screening that are NOT bonded, completely, and therefore Leaky.
    2. Copper, or (if you are .GOV with unlimited Resources) Silver Screening is what the Big Boys use, with a VERY small Mesh size. This makes it is easy to bond LAP Seems, as you just run a Solder Bead, down the center of each LAP Seem, which will electrically bond the two Pieces of Screening together.
    3. Any Door, or other Opening, in the Cage Walls, needs to be designed in a way, that when closed, the Seem has a very good Electrical & Mechanical Bond, along
    the complete length or the opening, with NO GAPS.
    4. You do NOT need to Ground a Faraday Cage, to Earth Ground, if it is constructed Properly. What you DO need to do is make SURE that the Internal Objects, inside the Cage are Electrically Isolated from the Inside of the Screening. The better the Isolation, between the Objects and the Screening, the better the Isolation for the Cage itself. If you do NOT deal with this, in your design, the Screening just acts as a BIG Antenna.
    5. WiFi will demonstrate how much Isolation your system will produce, HOWEVER, if you looking for EMP Protection, understand that this is a "DC to Light" WideBand Emission, and your WiFi Band is less than .05% of an EMP Pulses Bandwidth. Your Seems & Cage need to be much better, than just a WiFi Shield.
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