Good fences, make Good Neighbors....

Discussion in 'General Survival and Preparedness' started by dragonfly, Oct 1, 2010.

  1. dragonfly

    dragonfly Monkey+++

    Or, so it has been said!
    Now the query here is what anyone of you have, or plan to have, for an "external" or "primary" perimeter defense......?
    I have researched this and looked, and questioned, and I have discovered a fallacy of sorts, about "perimeter defense" and fences.
    Fences, are like locks, ONLY there to keep the Honest people, Honest!
    They may keep unwanted 'guests' out, such as coyotes, and other critters. They may keep your chickens, and sheep, and cattle, and even small children in.
    They won't keep people out. Certainly NOT the hungry, and determined people.
    The U.S. Army came up with a unique design, called the "Double apron barbed wire fence".
    We were trained to get past it. They even gassed us while we were doing so! We made it....So can "others"!
    Now, you can put up 6 strands of barbed wire and it has to be quite tall and quite heavily tensioned, but, the tension always makes it easier to climb up and over! Like chain link! Kids climb that easier than a goat on a rolling hill!
    At 220 lbs, and 59 years of age, I go over or thru a barbed wire fence so fast, it scared my old ( 49 years), caretaker silly! ( today he is re-thinking his barbed wire fence after all the cost and labor, it was NOT even enough to slow down an old "crippled fart" like me!) It really GOT his attention!
    And no, I did not even get a single scratch!
    You can use doubled fencing, and it will serve ONLY to slow the "other's" or whatever you may chose to refer to them as...down a little bit.
    It will not stop them. I have seen people climb those really high fences placed around those commercial batting cages!
    So, Whats the answer?
    I'm not really so sure.....short of a "no mans' land" with a cleared "killing zone". Got towers?
    I know you can dig trenches/ditches, and use huge/heavy rocks around areas to stop vehicles.
    Tall fences can even stop the so called "biker gangs" from doing what Steve McQueen did in "The Great Escape"!
    But, what about those on foot?
    Electrically charged fences only work the FIRST time. They can be neutralized! Wires can be cut, shot, whatever, and even shorted out!
    The fence is now a moot point! Besides, Most electrical fencing use small diameter, smooth wires anyway.
    So, back to square one. What can be done to STOP anyone from entering an area you do NOT want them to come through?
    Cactus plants are something you could use, but they can be knocked down ( wood: planks/boards) and even set fire to, and then they are no longer effective at all.
    The best deterrent I have yet to find, is man's 4 legged friend.
    DOGS! They can see, hear, and smell things we don't want to even know about! They can be a severe deterrent to a few, but they cannot be expected to take on say 4-6 individuals, if they are coming for you, your's, and any food. Now IF you happen to have say 10-12 Rottweilers, Dobermans, or even German shepards ,and they are sufficiently trained, you have a chance.
    The dogs, well they have NO chance against small arms fire.
    They won't even get a single bite in, and they'd be shot!
    Now, IF there were 2 fences, one located say 8, 10, or even 12 foot inside the primary or external fence, and the dogs were held back until the "bad guys" or "invaders", or "zombies" or whatever, came in to that area....then they would be far more effective that way.
    But seriously, I can see the holes in even that type of defense.
    Logistically speaking, it's a nightmare.
    It would take a myriad of systems, fences, and dogs, to have any effect that could be called "effective".
    Lights, cameras, electrical fences, barbed wire, alarms, and dogs....not cheap, and not effective, without someone there at all times to watch and keep an eye out.
    Any system can be "breached".
    It may take time, it may take ingenuity, but it can, and more than likely will be done.
    Never underestimate the opposition!
    A friend of mine asked why we can't use "boobytraps". They are "illegal in all cases". ( well it really all does depend on the circumstances, scenarios, and availability to law enforcement, now doesn't it?)

    The real Trouble with booby traps is they cannot and do not differentiate between colors of uniforms, flags, or the good guys and the bad guys!
    They are designed to harass, maim and to kill.
    They do what they do, very well, without bias, prejudice and conscience. They are extremely dangerous and IF you don't know where you put them all, and what you did, you are in serious trouble!
    I know. I almost got my head taken off by one of my own, just "playing around" in the back yard. I don't do that anymore!
    I learned and I was damned lucky too!

    Like wiring a shotgun to a door knob.....You may know it's there, but how well does a family member remember?
    Yeah, it's a place I suggest you don't go.

    With all of that having been said.....I came up with a couple ideas, but unable to implement them.
    Ever work with coils of "razor wire"? They do work, BUT they have to be stacked up so that they are at least 6 feet in height, and a roll, the last time I called, was $212.00 for a 100 ft roll! It takes 2 rolls for the bottom layer and one on top, to work! 3 per "section" ($636.00 per 100 ft!)
    I cannot even buy the wire unless I own a commercial piece of property, and I have to prove it!
    It would take me some 9 rolls for the north and south ends of my land, 300 ft each, ( 18 rolls so far) and another 18 rolls for the west and east sides, 600 ft each, ( another 36 rolls!)
    That's 54 rolls at $212.00 each! I also need the "clips" and special gloves to handle that stuff!
    So, that's out!

    I can't dig a moat and have alligators or pirahna!
    ( dang it!)

    It's a perplexing dilemna, IF you take it on!
    I am still searching for the answers.....I can put in lights that are on auto sensors ( good at night, worthless in the daytime)...I can put in alarm systems of various types, IR, motion detectors, and such.
    I can put up doubled fences, and even have electrically charged "cattle" fences. I can get 4-6 dogs and work for the next year to year and a half training them all.....
    It's a nightmare!
    You can always revert to a manually controlled defensive system.
    More than likely it is again, ILLEGAL.
    Personally, I am looking into some really bright white and red ground flares ( not illegal!) as well as some bright orange ground smoke units! (also NOT illegal). I am looking into pyrotechnic whistles as well! They work at night or daytime and scare the beejeezus out of the guy that trips it!
    You have multiple ways of placing certain things that will "alarm" you of an intruder. You can't "LEGALLY" use deadly force to stop them.
    There are some "12 gauge blank firing units" out there, but they are NOT chaep by any means, nor are the blanks. They can be a real deterrent, but they may also cause the person that trips it, to OPEN FIRE on anyone they see! If NOT used correctly, they can be seriously nasty ( enough said).
    Today, you can be sued to the end of time if a person breaks into your home, slips on the throw rug or waxed floors!
    It's pure insanity!
    I don't have the answers, but I am searching for any!
  2. Nadja

    Nadja RIP 3-11-2013 Forum Leader

    I living very rural, have two fences. The outer peremiter is of course barb wire. Won't stop much, but does establish the don't trespass boundries. If you cross that, then after walking exactly 100 yards, you reach my compound fence which is hog wire. Sure it is easy to climb or go through, but you set off my wireless alarms long before you even got to the barb wire fence and therefore I already know your here. My dogs also know your here. Now your really gonna be stupid and climb over my compound fence, face the dogs and ME. Opps, as I am ex military from the mid sixties, and don't like to be bothered much. That is why I live out here. When you climb the second fence, as far as I am concerned, You would want a good ins. policy so your family would have money to live on, as you will most likely not be around to support them any longer. That is about the best I can do for now
  3. Gafarmboy

    Gafarmboy Monkey+++

    Great Questions...

    Great Post Dragonfly..
    I too have been racking my brain to come up with effective, yet inexpensive, perimeter defense. And as you have done I have gone over the different possible types of defense without coming to a perfect solution. Being on a budget, I can not afford to build a $20,000 defense system. $2000 would be in my budget and that is for 10 acres. What I have settled on is a multilayer defense that will just slow them down enough to allow me enough time (i hope. And we all know hope is not a good strategy) to act. I have a single fence line that is hog wire (field wire) on the bottom and doubel barb wire on top. This is the standard fencing here in south Georgia. On the outer side of the fence is planted Spanish Bayonet and large thorn bushes. On the inside of the fence are planted a variety of rose bushes known as Grandmother roses. They are fast growing and have extremely sharp thorns. ( all these plants have been scrounged from surrounding fields and forest.) Weeds are encouraged to grow on the outside of the fence to hide the Spanish Bayonet and just obscure things in general. Within the fenced area are the dog, the Guineas and Peafowl. All three are great warning systems, especially the Guineas. I also have some electronic early warning systems that are set closer to the house. Unfortunately these are just general warning and are not directional. I have some home made defense measures that are built and waiting to be used. But like you, current legal advise says not to use them at this time.[peep]

    Be Blessed, Be Vigilant

    If you can not protect what you own, you won't own it long.
  4. bnmb

    bnmb On Hiatus Banned

    Well...I've been thinking about this and concluded that no perimeter protection can work in SHTF, so, I won't even try to protect the yard. Instead, I'm thinking about ways to turn the house into a bunker...Since our houses are made from iron reinforced concrete and solid bricks with large thickness, my primary concern would be doors and windows. I'm thinking about steel plates, manually chain operated that would drop from a false exterior wall when activated... :D
    It would take a rocket launcher to punch through. I saw something like that in a horror movie...I think was called "People under the stairs"...It's quite doable and you could put the plates either outside or inside the windows...
    It's a pretty cool idea... LOL
  5. dragonfly

    dragonfly Monkey+++

    For windows ( Be advised here: YOU MUST have an "emergency release" in any of the described methods) ( we used welded pin hinges, and attached the bars so they can swing downwards, making a "ladder" to escape in case of fire) ( you can hinge on any side, but DON'T hinge them from the tops! The bars are heavy and hard to hold up, in order to escape, and would effectively "pin" you down!)
    I use 3/4 inch electrical metallic conduit! (EMT) Not expensive, easy to cut and bend and such ( therein lies the "trick" of my "system")
    EMT, is easy to work with and to cut...HOWEVER, it's not what makes me "secure". I put 5/8 inch diameter rebar pieces inside. Now the bars for windows all look like a piece of cake to cut through, with a simple small hacksaw.
    Try it! The rebar inside of the EMT, will not allow the hacksaw blade to bite!
    The EMT is no more than a holder for the rebar sections, which freely roll around when anyone tries to cut through. We "experimented", with my hot saw on the ground, and ended up breaking the hot saws blade ( it exploded on us!)
    All of our window and door "bar systems" are on the inside of the house. They aren't exposed to the outside. The windows have to be broken first, then the bars are right there, against the frames. We bolted the barred sections to the walls with through bolts from the outside, using carriage bolts, and large flat "fender" washers, to keep anyone from grabbing any of the bolt heads, and to reinforce them, holding strength wise. We use a doubled bar system for the back door, as it is the weakest point of all. In that scenario, we used the bars as described above, and sections of "welded pool fence sections", that are powder coated. They all work quietly and effortlessly. This was ALL done "after the fact", that we'd had a burglary!
    That was the "easy" part!
    Total cost for 2 doors, and some rather large (4) "picture windows", plus (8) regular windows, was just over $250.00!
  6. Witch Doctor 01

    Witch Doctor 01 Mojo Maker

    Have you considered mouse traps?

    some varities have a nice "dimple" on the flail... drill a hole that will fit your favorite blank/flare (even .223's and other non -rimmed blanks with a few modifications) run trip wire and you have a poor mans alarm system...

    the traps would be considered a one use item...

    .other options would be a home made pengun style blank firing device...

    there are several other higher tech ways that can be used to alert you eo, laser, etc but i prefer simple and cheap..
  7. Gafarmboy

    Gafarmboy Monkey+++

    Need Pictures..

    Is it possible to post a photo of the above system. It sounds great but I can not get a mental image of it.
    Thanks in Advance

    Be Blessed, Be Vigilant

  8. dragonfly

    dragonfly Monkey+++

    I'll Work on that right now!
    It takes a few minutes to shoot, upload, sort, resize and post...
    I'll try to get them posted today!
    I have just posted a number of photos on my page.
    If you have any questions, PM me or send me a mesage and I'll get back to you just as soon as I can!
  9. Gafarmboy

    Gafarmboy Monkey+++

    Thank you..

    Looking at the pics now. Will finish looking at them later today and will pm any questions.
    Thank You

    Be Bless, Be Vigilant
  10. -06

    -06 Monkey+++

    Not much way to really stop someone with physical measures without making them dead. Fences, even "concertina" mixed with "tangle foot" will not stop people from entering. A trained person will not be "channeled" by it and he will be your biggest worry. Best you can do is slow the entry and be aware of their presence so they can be dwelt with properly. Andrew Jackson defeated an English army by slowing their advance and channeling their path. He was able to concentrate his fire onto helplessly mired troops from easily defendable positions. When finished one could have walked across the field of fire on dead bodies without touching the mire. Point is--he was ready for a much superior force.
  11. dragonfly

    dragonfly Monkey+++

    "IF" you can SLOW any opposing force, half the battle is won, not necessarily the WAR however....
    In a "perfect" defense, you'd have a series of defenses set up to 'slowly increase' the "violence" against further encroachment:.....1) barbed wire, 2) concertina wire coils) 3) anti-personnel mines. ( ? ) Dogs can be used in between the wire defenses, as well as "pits" and such ( Vietnam), then you can go to a smoke or even a gas system to irritate, such as OC, CS, CN types...
    ANY deterrent is a good deterrent. Even if it's dogs, cactus, mud, whatever you can throw at the "bad guy's". The "best" IMHO, is a "surprise" has a real psychological effect on any that may follow...."Flash Bangs" come to mind about now!
    At night, I personally like bright white, or red flares mixed with magneium, to effect their eyesight and toos in some LOUD noise, such as "poppers" to disorient and shake them up a tad. Fireworks whistles are excellent for disabling hearing ! If you "plan" your perimeter defenses, you can employ a variety of items that will alert you and scare the intruders half out of their wits! As they attempt to penetrate, the effects only worsen to discourage them mentally, then you get physical. Daylight: heavy smokes and it can be intermixed with OC ingredients, say in a really nasty orange flavour?
    (have a mask ready, nature plays heck with her winds)
  12. dragonfly

    dragonfly Monkey+++

    Mouse traps are ok, rat traps are MUCH better!
    You can even WELD teeth ( brads/nails) to them, and they do hurt!
    Like a miniature bear trap!
    Those work too!
  13. Witch Doctor 01

    Witch Doctor 01 Mojo Maker

    String fishing hooks at head height if you are in a woods scenario... punjis in pits if not...
  14. dragonfly

    dragonfly Monkey+++

    Here, there's a plant called the "devil's claw"...a real nasty bugger too!
    It Can disable horses!
    Copying it is simple, use LARGE treble hooks, spaced in unequal heights along a section of small sized ( 1/16th inch) aircraft cable...strung between trees, about 5 to 5 1/2 ft high, it's a real nasty! We use cable crimps to set the hooks in a variety of heights and spacings....When attached firmly around the trunk of a tree......They stop anything that comes into contact, almost instantly!
  15. dragonfly

    dragonfly Monkey+++

    Oh, almost great on wabbits as well! Put them, up about a foot off the ground with hooks dangling down to around 2 inches high!
  16. Gafarmboy

    Gafarmboy Monkey+++

    Sorry for the Delay DragonFly

    Sorry that I did not post a thank you earlier for your security bar pictures.:oops: I was checking recent posts and saw where I never came back and said thanks. The idea of using pool fencing INSIDE the house is brilliant. Never thought of that nor of using carriage bolts.

    Thanks Again
    Be Blessed, Be Vigilant

    If you can not protect what you own, you won't own it long.
  17. dragonfly

    dragonfly Monkey+++

    Be sure to have a "quick" or an emergency release system, in case of fire!
    Here, since 1996, we have had no less than 7 aircraft come down, 3 in my immediate vicinty alone! ( within 60 feet or less!) Mobile homes burn in less than 3 minutes! Knowing this, and having witnessed it first hand, a number of times, we have several smoke alarms, large fire extinguishers, and flashlights mounted in each and every room, then doubled in the hallway!
    I have had 3 fires ( all caused by a stove) in a mobile home and I have managed to put out the fires with no severe damages except from smoke!
    My personal advice to anyone: IF there is a fire, "GET OUT"!
    Money can replace all your things, but your life!
    Recently, I helped to install a LOT of 4 x 8 sheets of "fireshield drywall", (60 sheets!!!), in a mobile home. It's 5/8 " thick and not only great insulation, it can stop fires from spreading! ( BTW: It's heavy as all get out!) We did all exterior and interior walls and the ceiling! Makes for fantastic soundproofing too!
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