Lets talk water storage here

Discussion in 'General Survival and Preparedness' started by Quigley_Sharps, Mar 15, 2006.


  1. monkeyman

    monkeyman Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    Im not positive on the PSI to elevation ratio but I know we had a barrel on a stand about 9-10 feet above the floor where we had the pool and a hose run to a small shower head like you would have on a camp shower to make a shower by the pool and with the head about 5 foot below the barrel it didnt have enouph pressure to give a water massage or anything but had enouph pressure to shoot the water a few feet horizontal and enouph pressure for a shower.
    If you are thinking of a tank for normal use and want to be able to run dish washers and so forth on it then you may need more but I would say 10 feet or so above the faucet or shower head or whatever would be plenty to be functional for showering and even a little less would work for things like filling the toilet tank and getting drinking/washing/cooking water.

    Someone else with more knowledge can expand on this as far as specifics of how it works but one thing you can do to increase the pressure is simply to have a larger pipe comeing to a certian point then a smaller pipe or smaller opening at the point of use. Basicly it would greate the same situation by droping to half the size of pipe near the point of use as it dose when you put your thumb over half (or more) of the end of the hose and change it from being able to shoot 1 foot horizontal to shooting 10-15 foot horizontal.
     
  2. Quigley_Sharps

    Quigley_Sharps The Badministrator Administrator Founding Member

    Good info guy's, I’m starting my planning for water storage of 1000 gallons that can be rotated regularly, without difficulties.
    Water here is really cold, and lots of dark areas to store in.
    Bleach in what part per million is safe?
    Thanks
     
  3. ColtCarbine

    ColtCarbine Working Monkey Founding Member

  4. ColtCarbine

    ColtCarbine Working Monkey Founding Member

    Venturi effect

    The Venturi effect is a special case of Bernoulli's principle, in the case of fluid or air flow through a tube or pipe with a constriction in it. The fluid must speed up in the restriction, reducing its pressure and producing a partial vacuum via the Bernoulli effect. It is named after the Italian physicist Giovanni Battista Venturi.

    The reduction in pressure in the constriction is a result of conservation of energy: the fluid (or gas) gains kinetic energy as it enters the constriction, and that energy is supplied by a pressure gradient force from behind. The pressure gradient reduces the pressure in the constriction, in reaction to the acceleration. Likewise, as the fluid leaves the constriction, it is slowed by a pressure gradient force that raises the pressure back to the ambient level.

    The Venturi effect is visible in the capillaries of the human circulatory system or in large cities where wind is forced between buildings. It is used in gas jets that mix air and flammable gas in barbecues, gas stoves, and Bunsen burners; in water aspirators that produce partial vacuum from a water spigot; in atomizers that disperse perfume; and in carburetors that use the effect to suck gasoline into an engine's intake air stream. It is also traditionally used as an explanation as to how a wing generates lift to allow an airplane to fly. This simple theory of lift is now regarded as incorrect.

    The limiting case of the venturi effect is choked flow, in which a constriction in a pipe or channel limits the total flow rate through the channel, because the pressure cannot drop below zero in the constriction. Choked flow is used to control the delivery rate of water and other fluids through spigots and other valves.

    Practical uses

    A simple way to demonstrate the Venturi effect is to squeeze a flexible hose that is carrying water. If the flow is strong enough, the constriction will remain even if the hose would normally spring back to its normal shape: the partial vacuum produced in the constriction is sufficient to keep the hose collapsed.

    Buchner funnels use the Venturi effect to provide the suction on force against the contents of the funnel.

    http://www.answers.com/topic/venturi-effect
     
  5. ColtCarbine

    ColtCarbine Working Monkey Founding Member

    Treatment of Water to Make it Safe for Drinking

    In areas where tap water is not chlorinated or where sanitation is poor, there are several alternative methods for ensuring water is safe to drink. These include boiling the water, chemically disinfecting it, filtering it, using various combinations of the previously stated methods, or buying bottled water. Remember: if the tap water is not safe to drink in the area you are visiting, do not use it to reconstitute juice or to rinse fresh fruits and vegetables. Also avoid ice made from tap water.

    Below we describe ways to make sure water is safe to drink.

    Bottled Water

    Bottled water from a trusted source is a recommended alternative to tap water. Before drinking, be sure all bottled beverages have fully sealed caps. If seals are not intact, the bottles may have been refilled.

    Boiling Water

    Boiling water is the best method for making water safe to drink. Boiling water as recommended will kill bacterial, parasitic, and viral causes of diarrhea. Adding a pinch of salt to each quart will improve the taste.

    Directions for Boiling Water

    * Boil water vigorously for 1 minute and allow it to cool to room temperature (do not add ice).
    * At altitudes greater than 6,562 feet (>2,000 m), boil water for 3 minutes or use chemical disinfection after water has been boiled for 1 minute.

    Chemical Disinfection

    If boiling water is not possible, chemical disinfection with iodine (e.g., Globaline, Potable-Aqua, or Coghlan’s, found in pharmacies and sporting goods stores) is another method for making water safer to drink. Cryptosporidium (a parasite that can cause diarrhea) and other coccidian parasites (e.g., Cyclospora, Toxoplasma) might not be killed by this method. Cloudy water should be strained through a clean cloth into a container to remove any sediment or floating matter, and then the water should be treated with iodine.

    Directions for disinfecting water with iodine

    Iodine tablets

    1. Follow the tablet manufacturers' instructions.
    2. If water is cloudy, double the number of tablets.
    3. If water is extremely cold, less than 5° C (41° F), an attempt should be made to warm the water, and the recommended contact time (standing time between adding a chemical disinfectant to the water and drinking the water) should be increased to achieve reliable disinfection.

    Note: be sure the tablet size is correct for a Liter of water.

    Tincture of Iodine - measure out your dose to water.

    1. If using tincture of iodine 2% solution, add 5 drops to a Liter or Quart of clear water. If the water is cloudy, add 10 drops per Liter or Quart. (Note: 20 drops=1 ml.)
    2. Allow the water to stand for 30 minutes before drinking when the water temperature is at least 25°C (77°F). Increase the standing time for colder water: (e.g., for each 10° less than 25°C (77°F), allow the water to stand for double the time before drinking it.

    Crystalline Iodine (found at some chemical companies and sporting goods stores) First make a saturated solution and then measure your own dose to add to water. The crystalline form stores well indefinitely and new batches of the saturated solution can be made from a small amount of crystals each time you take a trip.

    To prepare a stock of Crystalline Iodine saturated solution:

    1. Place 4-8 grams of crystalline iodine into a 1-2 oz container and fill with water. Note: 1oz=6 teaspoons.
    Warning: crystalline iodine at 4-8 grams is a lethal dose if accidentally swallowed in a single dose. Keep out of the reach of children.
    2. Shake the bottle vigorously for 1 minute. Allow several additional minutes for the iodine to maximally dissolve in the available water. Some crystals should always be visible; if they totally dissolve, then more crystals should be added to the container to insure that iodine saturation of the stock solution has been achieved.
    3. If the water to be treated is clear, add 13 ml of saturated iodine solution -- liquid above the crystals, not the crystals themselves -- per Liter or Quart. Note: 5 ml= 1 teaspoon. 13 ml = about 2.5 teaspoons
    4. In cloudy water, add 26 ml of saturated solution per Liter or Quart.
    Note: Allow the solution to stand 20 minutes before drinking the disinfected water when the water temperature is 20-25°C (68-77°F). Increase the standing time with colder water. For each 10° less than 25°C (77°F), allow the water to stand for double the time before drinking.

    Portable Water Filters

    Certain types of portable water filters can also remove some types of infectious agents from drinking water. However, most of the portable filters on the market do not effectively remove viruses, thus chemical disinfection of water is needed after filtering with such filters to make the water safer for drinking. Some portable water filters designed to remove parasites (Giardia/Cryptosporidium) have an "absolute” pore sizes of 0.1 to 1-micrometer and, therefore, may also remove most diarrhea-causing bacteria. See the Division of Parasitic Diseases' Guide to Water Filters and Bottled Water to learn about different filters and those that filter Cryptosporidium. Viruses are smaller than 0.1 micron and will NOT be removed by filters with a pore size of 0.1 or larger. To kill viruses that may pass through these filters, add iodine (as described above) to the filtered water before you drink it.

    Note: Chlorine in various forms has also been used for chemical disinfection. However, it is not as reliable as iodine for killing disease causing organisms in the wide range of water-quality conditions that travelers might encounter

    Warnings

    * Crystalline iodine 4-8 grams used in a stock solution constitutes a human lethal dose if accidentally swallowed in a single dose. Keep out of the reach of children.
    * Water that has been disinfected with iodine is NOT recommended for pregnant women, people with thyroid problems, those with known hypersensitivity to iodine, or continuous use for more than a few weeks at a time.

    http://www.cdc.gov/travel/water_treatment.htm
     
  6. melbo

    melbo Hunter Gatherer Administrator Founding Member

    nice info Colt
     
  7. melbo

    melbo Hunter Gatherer Administrator Founding Member

    QS. I have been waiting for Backwoods home to digitize and article from the sept/oct 2005 issue. Seems they aren't going to do it.

    "Build a component water system" David Lee
    Basically says that you need to install a surface type jet pump to kick up the PSI for this application. all bypassed for normal use.

    I'll send you a copy when I get a chance...
     
  8. Quigley_Sharps

    Quigley_Sharps The Badministrator Administrator Founding Member

    Cool we have a cistern and pump we pump up a steep hill then gravity feed it in now.
    I would like to read it !
     
  9. dano23

    dano23 Monkey+++

    I'm going to replace my hot water heater ,still in good working order, with a Bosch gas water heater. Will then plumb the old tank in line for an extra 300 gallons of stored water that is fresh.
     
  10. Tango3

    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

    I think thats a great idea, have even considered buying several.just for that purpose. What I Like is it rotates itself.(stays fresh)
    gotta print out colts post thanks...
    Nothing on bleach??? I keep a couple of liquid gallons squirreled away in the "pantry" just for water and sanitation..
    Walmart also has dried bleach tablets: 1 tab makes a gallon; 5 or10 tablets to a card might be the best way to go for long term worry free storage.
    There are directions on washing dishes and utencils in spanish on the tablet card so this is probably a common "3rd world"sanitation use. tablets won't leak all over and they're cheap.

    The following is copied word for word:from pg 19 "peakoil survival ( preparation forlifeafter gridcrash)",by aric mcbay, lyons press copyright 2006:

    "Chemical Disinfection:
    Disinfection by adding chlorine(usually in the form of bleach)is also an option However this method is less than ideal.while chlorine is a very effective disinfectant,it can be difficult to determine the proper amount of chlorine to use and there are potential taste and health side effects that can occur from ingesting chlorine. The strength of chlorine compounds varies widely and depends on storage conditions. Household bleach rapidly loses strength overtime, though powdered chlorine (calcium hypochlorite) will last longer-up to ten years under ideal storage conditions.Use only pure bleach. Do not use bleach with fabric softener or other laundry additives because they are very likely to be poisonous.
    To disinfect water with liquid bleach, first look at the concentration of chlorine in your bleach .Then use the following amounts of bleach per quart or liter of water:
    1%concentration: 10drops
    2% through6%concentration: 2drops
    7 through 10%concentration: 1drop
    For slightly cloudy water double the number of drops.Let the water stand for at least 30 minutes,after which there should be a slight smell of chlorine.If there is no odor, repeat the dose and wait another 15 minutes.
    then let the water water sit to reduce the chlorine taste and smell which may take several hours.
    Aerating chlorinated water after disinfection will also improve the taste,as will adding a pinch of vitamin c
    (crushed vitamin C tablets work well)which neutralizes chlorine.[booze]
    May not be the very best method but the knowledge may come in handy someday.[boozingbuddies]
     
  11. fritz_monroe

    fritz_monroe Guest

    I don't know if you guys have this posted somewhere around here or not, but bleach does go bad. I was pointed to this page on the Cornell University web page. FAQ, Biological Safety Topics talks about liquid bleach losing strength. Basically if you need liquid bleach to sanitize water, you have to rotate it every 3 months.

    I'll be looking into the bleach tablets, are they just called bleach tablets or is there a brand name on them? I had several bottles of bleach stored until I found out that it isn't good for water after a few months.
     
  12. Tango3

    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

    thank you, I'll grab a brand name,(and a couple of cards) next time head to the wallyworld.didn't realize it was only good for 3months..
     
  13. sniper-66

    sniper-66 Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    Bleach is sodium hypochlorite, the same stuff that is used in swimming pools to regulate the chlorine level. We used to use the powder form for the old military lister bags and I can kick myself in the butt for throwing out about 10 cases of the stuff when we turned in our lister bags. When I get some time, I will go find a bucket of the swimming pool stuff and research it to see if it will work.
     
  14. fritz_monroe

    fritz_monroe Guest

    I've read that pool chlorine has some binders and other stuff. Anyone have any details about this?

    What amount would be used to make a gallon of 6% bleach?
     
  15. Tango3

    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

    the word on walmart bleach tabs!!!had to run at the last minute for something tonight...across the bottom on the back side in red :
    "NOT FOR DRINKINGWATER"
    itsgotsome other chemicals in it.
     
  16. emk

    emk Monkey+++

    I've got 2 250 gallon blue plastic food grade tanks. I change the water about every six months. They are held at 63 degrees. Gotta keep the wine and single malts comfortable. The question that I have is how much bleach can a person add to 250 gallons to maintain it's useful life? I have not been able to extract an answer from anybody. They talk about drops per gallon, not pints per 50 gallons etc. Thanks for any ideas.

    Elliott[​IMG]
     
  17. hartage

    hartage Monkey+++

    Since you have such a large amount, testing actual levels would be a better idea since you are keeping it longer term. According to this document http://www.edstrom.com/DocLib/MI4174.pdf drinking water to kill chlorine resistant bugs should be at 2.0 ppm (parts per million) chlorine level. Pool water is to be kept between 1.0 and 3.0 ppm. So why not just use a cheap pool cholorine test kit to test samples of your tank water ? That way you know what the actual level is and are not just guessing on what it should be. You can buy pool water test kits cheap at walmart among other places and the test range includes what should be for drinking water. Oh yeah, just make sure you don't dump the already tested water back in like some people do with tested pool water. Just a thought....
     
  18. sniper-66

    sniper-66 Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    Tango, those other chemicals are algacide. The HTH is about %50 Calcium hypochlorite and 50% the Algacide.
    Here is a calculator for determining how much chlorox, http://www.csgnetwork.com/h2oemergencypurifycalc.html It still works in drops, and teaspoons. Looks like 1 teaspoon per 10 gallons of water, therefore, 25 teaspoons for your 250 gallons.
    At the bottom of the page is a section on where to find water barrels, this is a good link.
     
  19. sniper-66

    sniper-66 Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    Just found this while I was researching, rather fits into what we are talking about.

    http://www.health.wa.gov.au/envirohealth/water/docs/Vehicle_Mounted_Water_Tanks.pdf

    Learned something today, Dry form Chlorine is typically Calcium Hypochlorite, while aqueous form is usually Sodium Hypochlorite, less strong and is why you tend to have salt water when the Chlorox breaks down! As Jonny Carson used to say, I did not know that!
     
  20. fritz_monroe

    fritz_monroe Guest

    Thanks for the info. I did a little searching and here is what the EPA says about using Calcium Hypochlorite for disinfecting water.

    Even though some don't like to trust the government for this type of thing, there's some good information on their Emergency Disinfection of Drinking Water page. I use this kind of info as a starting point for my searching.
     
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