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Massad Ayoob Pers. Def. TV..... Rant On!

Discussion in 'General Survival and Preparedness' started by Blackjack, Feb 6, 2007.

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  1. Blackjack

    Blackjack Monkey+++

    I know some others here watch "Personal Defense TV" and I have a brief rant about one of their regular "experts", Massad Ayoob.

    Let me first say that I am a fan of the show for the most part, and a few of their "experts", like the guy from Valhalla especially give great advice. But this idiot Massad Ayoob has no business trying to teach people self defense as his techniques are not based on reality... only theory.

    I watched him last night demonstrating defense techniques with a flashlight. He showed how to deflect a punch with the flashlight used like a baton or tonfa..... ok, I'm with him so far, it's valid...... but then he did what most other "martial arts experts" that have no clue do. He showed how to apply a control technique to the attackers arm While the attacker stands still as if caught frozen in time halfway through his punch! Ridiculous! The technique basically would have handed the weapon to the attacker by giving him superior leverage over it.

    I get fed up with these "theoretical experts" teaching people how to get their butts handed to them. They've never been in a fight, it's all just what they think will work. It's like someone trying to learn to play basketball without ever actually playing in a game, it doesn't work. You could learn to dribble, pass and shoot, but the first time you step into a game you will get your butt kicked by someone with actual experience.

    end rant.
  2. monkeyman

    monkeyman Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    While I fully agree that there are a LOT of the big names and everyday instructors in self defence/martial arts that ONLY know how to be dojo dancers and would be stomped on in any real fight, there is also a lot of things that while they DO work well can only be demonstrated with a cooperative person 'standing still' for either oof 2 reasons. First being that a lot of the things if done as they would be IRL would be impossible to see HOW they were done since speed is typicaly a big part of it and the other thing being that a lot of the things, if the person resists once it is applied will do more damage than most folks want to subject themselves to for a demo. Kind of like if you have someone in an arm bar even (just as what comes to mind that all would knowwhat it is though there would be better examples) if it has gotten locked in and you resist it you will most likely break you arm, if you are resisting while it is being applied (as in while they get it locked) then more force is needed to get it applied and so it gets locked a LOT harder and more painfuly.

    So most of the time sparing and demos are done slow and once you realize you cant avoid a move you go with it to keep from undue harm.
  3. E.L.

    E.L. Moderator of Lead Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    I hate to tell you this but Ayoob who is one of the most highly respected gun writers and trainers, he has been a cop for a long, long time and he developed a lot of his techniques through real life experiences.
    CATO likes this.
  4. ghostrider

    ghostrider Resident Poltergeist Founding Member

    Re: Massad Ayoob Pers. Def. TV.....Rant On!

    Ayoob's book, In the Gravest Extreme, is the best single book you could read if you carry a firearm for self defense. Beyond that, he's recognized as an expert witness in court on self-defense matters. He's been a cop for 25 years. Most firearm writers shoot great groups with a keyboard, Ayoob can really shoot. 5 gun master is a new category for IDPA, and Ayoob has already qualified as one.

    The flashlight/baton/tonfa come-along technique really works.
  5. Blackjack

    Blackjack Monkey+++

    Re: Massad Ayoob Pers. Def. TV.....Rant On!

    Ghostrider, I'm sorry, I disagree with " The flashlight/baton/tonfa come-along technique really works." If he would have actually attempted that against a combatant rather than a demo partner, he would have given his enemy control of the baton. And even if he would have managed to get the technique cinched in, it doesn't keep a person dead set on ripping your face off from hurting you.

    Respected author, 25 year cop, I'm not doubting it. But the technique he showed on PDTV the other night was unrealistic and dangerous to even attempt.

    People had the same respect only more for Bruce Lee, yet finally the world is figuring out that the techniques don't work in real combat. Bruce Lee was only in one fight in his entire life that we know of, and he himself said he was disappointed with the outcome of that. Thanks to some "no holds barred" fighting like the UFC, people are slowly figuring it out.

    In the early days of the UFC, they allowed in a lot of "Martial Arts Masters" who not only NEVER used ANY of their stylistic techniques, they also got their butts smashed by the ring fighters from combat sports like boxing, muay thai, jj, wrestling (real not hollywood).

    In all of the UFC events (something like 70 now?) not a single hi block, lo block, head block, bla bla block, knifehand bla bla...... nothing....... nothing...... nothing.

    Or maybe all the "true masters" are above going after the prize money, kinda like psychics are above picking winning lotto numbers....... right.

    I can't change my mind on this one, I don't care what the guy has written or done.

    I know I'm going to be the outsider on issues like this..... I always am. ;)
  6. FerFAL

    FerFAL Monkey+++

    Re: Massad Ayoob Pers. Def. TV.....Rant On!

    Didn’t watch the particular chapter, but I’ve read a lot of Ayoob’s stuff. While I disagree with some, most is pretty good.You have to decide for yourself, what’s good info and whats not. There’s no Combat God out there, no guy who is 100% right. If you find and instructor that is right 60% of the time, consider yourself lucky.

    Many self proclaimed experts,( even some pompous idiots that have “Combat Master” engraved on the slide of their 1911 for crying out loud!) have done much worse. Chuck Taylor strikes me as one of the worst miss-informants. “Auto vs Revolver” Is there a difference? By Taylor is one of the worst pieces of crap I’ve ever read.

    Clint Smith also seems to be held in high regard, though he’s better at marketing than actually passing along useful information.

    Gabe Suarez seems like one of the most serious instructors. The guy actually traveled through South America learning about actual street gunfights and talking with guys that have seen at least 20x more gunfights than Chuck Taylor and Clint Smith put together, and I’m not exaggerating one bit.

    Now, that’s a guy that is not afraid to LEARN before he goes on teaching people what to do in a gunfight

  7. jim

    jim Monkey+++ Founding Member

    Re: Massad Ayoob Pers. Def. TV.....Rant On!

    Do you have a link to that Taylor article? I'd like to check it out.
  8. FerFAL

    FerFAL Monkey+++

    Re: Massad Ayoob Pers. Def. TV.....Rant On!

    Sorry, no link. I read the article on a guns and ammo, Combat Handguns or some other gun magazine.

  9. medicineman

    medicineman Monkey+++

    Re: Massad Ayoob Pers. Def. TV.....Rant On!

    AYOOB has FORGOTTEN more about defensive shooting than you will ever know.

    I'd appreciate the moderators not allowing the sullying of a good man's reputation like this.
  10. Conagher

    Conagher Dark Custom Rider Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    Re: Massad Ayoob Pers. Def. TV.....Rant On!

    I can see that Blackjack has his opinion, as well as, all others are entitled to their opinion.

    I've watched Massad Ayoob on several occasions and I feel the man knows what he is doing.

    On a side note, Blackjack you have to realize as what was said already in this thread, is that a demonstration will not have the same impact on the situation as a real life encounter would and you should take that into account.

    Heck, send an email to Massad and ask him if he has ever successfully used that technique in a real life situation. Tell him your concerns on the technique and see what he says about it.

  11. ghrit

    ghrit Ambulatory anachronism Administrator Founding Member

    Re: Massad Ayoob Pers. Def. TV.....Rant On!

    Medicineman reported this thread to admin/mods as offensive against Mas Ayoob. Accordingly, two mods have responded to his report. Here follows one of the responses:

    "Medicineman, we appreciate your notification. Mas Ayoob is a premier expert in self defense, and is well known, literally world wide. As such, he gets the same treatment on this forum as the President of the United States, Vladimir Putin, and Hugo Chavez. To say criticism as well as praise are allowed. Public figures earn the opinions expressed in media, that's the way of it. Note that Ayoob is well defended by others in this thread. Since there is no violation of our CoC, no action is warranted."

    Medicineman, we invite your attention to the dates on the previous postings.

    Welcome to the forum; we hope you continue to read, learn and contribute.

  12. Blackjack

    Blackjack Monkey+++

    Re: Massad Ayoob Pers. Def. TV.....Rant On!

    [lolol]Massad...... Is that you?! [lolol]

    Don't you worry medicineman, most of the folks here don't agree with me about him anyway, but they still let me have my rants.... aint freedom great :)

    p.s. - I didn't say he wasn't a "good man", just that he was wrong about this technique I saw him perform. Be careful about putting good/bad labels on people just because you agree/disagree with a particular view or belief of theirs.
  13. Tango3

    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

    que the lights,
    "hai! your kung fu is no good, lets fight! :) ...
  14. medicineman

    medicineman Monkey+++

    Re: Massad Ayoob Pers. Def. TV.....Rant On!

    No worries.

    And I haven't put a "BAD MAN" label on YOU either.

    It's just that there is a LOT of excellent information that Mas has to impart, and the "noobs" would benefit highly from his teachings.

    Is he a god??

    But he's not a clown either.

    My concern was for those who don't know his history or skill and might miss out on good teachings for naught.
  15. BigO01

    BigO01 Monkey+++ Founding Member

    If you have questions about his training why not go ask the man himself ?

    He is over at The High Road forum and I have PM'd him a few occasions with questions and he always responds back .

    I would suggest you not insult the man though , as stated he is a world over respected trainer and working LEO .

    I have known a PD department Training officer sent to the mans classes so he can then train the others in his department and he certainly didn't think he was Full of it , he himself was a Sargent with 20 years on the job and a former Marine with combat experience in Nam .
  16. Stillwater

    Stillwater Monkey+++

    I was taking a combat pistol class given by a highly respected LAPD officer. I asked him what he thought of Massad Ayoob...

    He said Massad is a boob...!

    This is from a policeman that I know, and respect, that has been in several LAPD gun fights. This man had twenty years experience on the LAPD SWAT team, and twenty-seven years on LAPD when he retired.

    Ayoob's only police experience, is on a "small" east coast village police force. The last time I heard, this PD only had 5 or 6 officers...

    A-Boob writes a lot, but makes grave errors. Read his article on the Miami FBI gunfight. Then read the criticism of the article, and the many factual mistakes A-Boob made in the article...

    Don't take anybody at face value... Check and recheck them...

  17. BigO01

    BigO01 Monkey+++ Founding Member

    Well Bill it couldn't possibly be that you buddy is pissed because he isn't a popular book Author , Firearms trainer , expert witness for defense cases and widely respected the world over by LEO's and Military and runs in circles with many other guys in the same class and when he finally retires he will probably live a really good life due to all of the money he has earned all these years .

    Now could it .

    O and I forgot sought after Television personality and a very good competitor in National shooting matches who knows the best of the best on a first name basis .
  18. Blackjack

    Blackjack Monkey+++

    Or it could be that Ayoob is the boob that spouted a bunch of crap in his book so people would buy it.

    I don't care if he's the most respected officer in the world with 200 years experience in blah, blah, I watched the man with my own eyes on tv performing a technique that only works ON TV or in your imagination. Not only does my own experience bear that out, but just applying logic and reason to it. Attackers don't stand still while you perform your next complicated move on them! My mind is made up about him.
  19. Stillwater

    Stillwater Monkey+++

    No it couldn't be that at all...

    This friend is one of those that doesn't toot his own horn. This friend is one of those that have been there and done it all. You should see the medals that he came home from Viet Nam with! He never told me about the medals he received, I just happened on to seeing them.

    But then I forgot that most posters on preparedness forums, are easily impressed, and inexperienced...!

    I stilll think that Massad is still A-boob, and I thought that before I met my LAPD friend...

  20. Conagher

    Conagher Dark Custom Rider Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    So you saying that "posters" on this forum are easily impressed and inexperienced?

    Hmmmm, sounds like you need to walk a few miles in all of "our" inexperienced shoes before you start judging people!
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