SHTF: Martial law or not (can it happen)

Discussion in 'General Survival and Preparedness' started by hitchcock4, Apr 18, 2017.

  1. hitchcock4

    hitchcock4 Monkey++

    I regularly watch "Canadian Prepper" on youtube and he has an interesting video I thought would spark some discussion.

    His video is in response to a video from "Reality Survival".
    In a sentence, "reality survival" says that martial law wouldn't (couldn't happen) while Canadian Prepper certainly thinks that it could.

    Here is the video from Reality Survival
    At around 3:30 he begins to analyze numbers in terms of can the police force (Chicago police, National guard, whoever) be big enough to control an entire city as large as Chicago.

    Here is the video from Canadian prepper

    What do YOU think ???
    Motomom34 likes this.
  2. Dunerunner

    Dunerunner Brewery Monkey Moderator

    I guess it would depend upon who was in control back in D.C.......

    If our government became tyrannical, and tried to oppress the citizens, I suppose they could use Martial Law to effect that imposition of authority. Now if the government were eliminating entitlements, reducing taxes, getting rid of useless policies and reducing their intrusion on everyday life and those who want the Nanny State rose in revolt, I don't think there would be any need for Martial Law.
    Thunder5Ranch and Motomom34 like this.
  3. snake6264

    snake6264 Combat flip flop douchebag

    Maybe in large urban areas but in small communities and rural areas it's gonna be Wolverines up the @.. just my 2 cents
  4. BTPost

    BTPost Stumpy Old Fart,Deadman Walking, Snow Monkey Moderator

    Martial Law can only be imposed in Cities, as there are NEVER enough of the Enforces to keep the country Folks, in line, who are spread out, and not concentrated in one area. These kind of Enforces must Patrol in Groups for their own safety & Security, so even in Cities it will be a very hard thing to do for any length of time... Heck, just look at Chicago... with all their numerous LEOs, they can't even catch the Killers walking their streets... The homicide SOLVED rate is less than 10%... especially in the Ghetto Neighborhoods....
    Motomom34 and Altoidfishfins like this.
  5. Oltymer

    Oltymer Monkey++

    Martial Law - yeah, it's not only doable, it would be enacted and enforced if the need arises. The feds and local governments have been working on this for a long time, and the Military would be calling the shots. Curfews, your papers please, gun registration and confiscation, forced vaccination, the whole 9 yards. Large cities would get major troop deployments, small towns and rural areas would get small units that would work with the local LEO's. The first objective would be to round up everybody on the "Rogues" list, which is updated yearly and is comprised of known criminals, political dissidents, preppers, survivalists, anyone of a suspicious nature for whatever reason, and they would be corralled together in the local football stadium to await transport to one of the "camps". No charges, no hearing, no due process, just the Military doing it's job. Get out of line and deadly force will be unleashed without reservation. OPERATION GARDEN PLOT
    Tully Mars likes this.
  6. Tevin

    Tevin Monkey+++

    @BTPost is only partly right. There are not enough cops, or soldiers, or anyone, to maintain martial law over the entire country, or even most of it.

    But they could do it in limited areas or a single city. And even if you're not in one of those areas, you still have a problem.

    What will the country folk do when the nearest city gets closed off? Fishing and hunting and being a master of bushcraft is great, but sooner or later you're going to need a jug of propane or a prescription refill or something that you can't hunt down or hand carve out of wood. Are you going to descend from your mountain into the city and take your chances where martial law is in force? You might take that risk only to find out the city doesn't have what you need because their supply line is controlled or shut down.

    I think these martial law topics are a bit kooky and belong in the tin foil hat section. But if we are going to "go there," let's be real: Just because you live fifty miles from the nearest paved road doesn't mean you won't have a problem. It only means it will take the problem a little longer to reach you.
  7. Dunerunner

    Dunerunner Brewery Monkey Moderator

    I'd bet that for every cop in Chicago, there are three Dunkin' Donuts...
    Brokor and Tully Mars like this.
  8. Tempstar

    Tempstar Monkey+++

    Many seem to think Martial Law will involve troopers kicking in doors, but it does not. Tevin hit on it a bit. Curfews and lock-downs of strategic areas and control of trade will be the order of the day. Don't think FEMA does not know everything we know, and realize that total control under ML is not possible. Controlling goods and infrastructure are the top priority rather it be disaster or Martial Law. The National Incident Command System was devised to get all the agencies working together seamlessly and quickly. Should Martial Law ever be declared, You won't be able to buy a Pepsi, a prescription, or Pampers without going through an alphabet agency to do so. The only LEOs on the ground will be protecting themselves initially and manning roadblocks.
    Tully Mars and Motomom34 like this.
  9. DKR

    DKR Raconteur of the first stripe

    (Rolls eyes)

    Not. Going. To. Happen. Period....

    t would take a declaration of a National Emergency by the President, backed by Congress to suspend the Posse Comitatus Act (18 USC &1835)

    The Act prohibits members of the Army from exercising nominally state law enforcement, police, or peace officer powers that maintain "law and order" on non-federal property (states and their counties and municipal divisions) within the United States.

    Further - The statute prohibits Army and Air Force personnel and units of the National Guard under federal authority from acting in a law enforcement capacity within the United States, except where expressly authorized by the Constitution or Congress. The Navy and Marine Corps are prohibited by a Department of Defense directive, not by the Act itself.

    The maintenance of peace, conduct of orderly elections, and prosecution of unlawful actions are all state responsibilities, pursuant to the states' primary job of exercising police power and maintaining law and order.

    And again, in 1976 the National Emergencies Act set a limit of two years on emergency declarations unless the president explicitly extends them, and requires the president to specify in advance which legal provisions will be invoked.

    However -once a State of Emergency has been declared, and sustained by a legal quorum in Congress - well then, the gloves can come off.

    As for the other

    TE nailed it one. There are not enough cops, or soldiers, or anyone, to maintain martial law over the entire country, or even most of it. They really barely handled LA county in 1991.

    The military and the LA (Rodney King) riots.
    Foreign Military Studies Office Publications - Combat in Cities: The LA Riots and Operation Rio

    No apple polishing in this document

    ". . . politics and egos had a significant impact on various important decisions made during the riots . . . Sometimes senior officials merely wanted to appear fully "in charge," or posture themselves to take maximum advantage of the incredible numbers of media personnel in the area. At other times, decisions were made to help justify more questionable decisions made previously."

    The bickering that attended the LA riots contributed to the difficulties that bedeviled the CNG and Regular Army commanders operating in the politically charged interagency environment. The decision to federalize the CNG caused great anxiety among the Guard troops.

    The Guard view
    The 1992 Los Angeles Riots: Military Operations in Los Angeles, 1992

    A bit of apple polishing here and there, but a lot of good stuff as well. The opening is sobering:
    Parts of Los Angeles can be extremely dangerous. The county had over 100,000 gang members and there were 771 gang-related homicides reported in 1991. It is not surprising that many police officers admit they "lost the streets" some years ago, with many neighborhoods in the city dominated by rival gangs. "
    (I added the boldface - 100K gang-bangers - back 26 years ago )

    I would note that:
    A divisional unit in the United States Army typically consists of 17,000 to 21,000 soldiers commanded by a major general. Two Division and some aux units equals a Corps. These gang numbers came from LA County alone and in 1991.

    The US currently has 10 active duty Division units. The US Army Guard has 8 Divisions. The USMC has four Divisions and a single Reserve Division.

    Gang membership in the United States was conservatively estimated at 1 million members as of September 2008, based on analysis of federal, state, and local law enforcement reporting--an increase from an estimated 800,000 members in 2005. Current estimates include approximately 900,000 gang members residing within local communities across the country and more than 147,000 documented gang members incarcerated in federal, state, and local correctional facilities, according to state and federal corrections data.

    I found the math disturbing, and it became a great plot device in my WoC book series..
    I don't know how the gangs would react to a wide scale disaster, but they now outnumber police forces in many areas of the US.

    OTOH, there is this:
    FWIW, far too many of the Veterans of this posters were never door kickers....
    Motomom34 and Ura-Ki like this.
  10. Ura-Ki

    Ura-Ki Grampa Monkey

    DKR hit on another aspect of 'WHY" it cannot work at any level other then small local/regional. CHAIN OF COMMAND! Every single time my Squad was stood up for some disaster or other Fed response, We had numbers beyond count of "leaders" to answer to. I worked directly under a 2 star who in turn had to answer to 15 different "leaders" for every thing from who and where and how to dispense toilet paper, to how and when and where to rescue folks that needed rescuing! Exasperating is an understatement! The main problem is the Fed steps in and then over steps it's bounds with Local command and state agencies and gov's. No wonder things can not get done in a timely manor, and worse, assets and resources get wasted or side tracked. Now, if by some chance, they actually followed procedure and the chain of command, then it's possible. A big part of the problem is FEMA/DHS involvement, they want to be in charge of every thing and they do not play well with National Command during any event, and they also step on the toes of the State adjutant general and his command of FED assets and the military, and further more, they side step the Governor's and local Sheriff's by declaring said event a FED disaster, and putting themselves in charge, and as we have seen, totally inept to handle any thing large scale!
    Motomom34 likes this.
  11. SB21

    SB21 Monkey+++

    Control the masses by controlling their necessities . Curfews, confiscations . If they did deploy our military to back up or act as a police force, I believe they would be confused as to what the hell is happening, what is going on , that they would be reluctant to use force on our civilians , until some of these civilians fires on them, then it becomes their survival .
  12. Tully Mars

    Tully Mars Metal weldin' monkey

    Well call me the overly paranoid monkey in the bunch, but not only do I think it could happen, I think it's just a matter of time. I believe the .gov could make it work. True martial law is different than what we have seen. Sending in the NG to quell a riot is not the same. There will be confusion, but if it is for real I figure the forces will be authorized to use lethal force. If that is the case, and the military is used, yeah they could make it work widespread. The sheeple are already being conditioned not to question authority figures through the media, tv shows, ect. Would there be some that refused the order? Sure, and there will be folks that stand up and say come and take it, but that doesn't mean that it won't be tried and in many places successful.
    Ura-Ki and Homer Simpson like this.
  13. Tempstar

    Tempstar Monkey+++

    Hate to disagree DKR, but I have sat through FEMA classes and DHS classes where it has been laid out. Once a state requests federal assistance, National Command is activated. Posse Comitatus is easily circumvented by placing military assets in a support role to Guard and law enforcement units. I was in a class in 2012 where the DHS guy just laughed when someone brought up PC. Theories are one thing, but as I stated earlier FEMA and DHS already know all of this, and have plans in place to circumvent anything they need to. As far as gangs go, the rule of the day is containment, the same as with large urban areas.
    Further, anyone who has been in an area after a hurricane has seen massive mobilization of National Guard units to man roadblocks. Hurricane Katrina had Army on the ground in a "support" role, as well as Navy assets offshore and Coast Guard both offshore and in the air in "humanitarian" roles.
    Can Martial Law happen? Absolutely! Plans are already in place. Will it happen? Not likely unless catastrophic events damage the country's infrastructure beyond what the states can handle.

    Martial Law
    The exercise of government and control by military authorities over the civilian population of a designated territory.

    Martial law is an extreme and rare measure used to control society during war or periods of civil unrest or chaos. According to the Supreme Court, the term martial law carries no precise meaning (Duncan v. Kahanamoku, 327 U.S. 304, 66 S. Ct. 606, 90 L. Ed. 688 [1946]). However, most declarations of martial law have some common features. Generally, the institution of martial law contemplates some use of military force. To a varying extent, depending on the martial law order, government military personnel have the authority to make and enforce civil and criminal laws. Certain civil liberties may be suspended, such as the right to be free from unreasonable searches and seizures, freedom of association, and freedom of movement. And the writ of Habeas Corpus may be suspended (this writ allows persons who are unlawfully imprisoned to gain freedom through a court proceeding).

    In the United States, martial law has been instituted on the national level only once, during the Civil War, and on a regional level only once, during World War II. Otherwise, it has been limited to the states. Uprisings, political protests, labor strikes, and riots have, at various times, caused several state governors to declare some measure of martial law.
    Ganado likes this.
  14. snake6264

    snake6264 Combat flip flop douchebag

    The entirety of the police and armed forces would be needed just for urban martial law and the cost would be high
  15. Brokor

    Brokor Live Free or Cry Moderator Site Supporter+++ Founding Member


    Done did completed finalized finished that part already. lol.
  16. chelloveck

    chelloveck Diabolus Causidicus

    I think you are on to something, Brokor....The corruption of the organs of government has been an ongoing process for some time...the only difference being that the process seems to be accelerating markedly of late. Alternative facts; accusation of fake news; tyranny by tweet are just symptoms of that rotting setting in....When citizens are induced to inform on fellow citizens to government authorities for deviant thinking or deviant behaviour not in alignment with prevailing State policy and propaganda, then the hand basket (and any residual freedoms and liberty) will be well and truly freewheeling to Hell....:(
    Mountainman, Tully Mars and Brokor like this.
  17. hitchcock4

    hitchcock4 Monkey++

    As the OP, I guess I should give my two cents. If you watch the video from Canadian Prepper video I linked, there are a lot of things in the video that I agree with. @Tully Mars touches on one of them as well.

    1) Drones (for surveillance)
    2) Curfews and other means of corralling people.
    I think those 2 things are pretty big. If there is a regional uprising, a curfew WOULD be instituted.

    Now, I'm not saying that this could happen across 100% of the USA. But if there is a region of the US that had riots, a curfew is going to be instituted. What are you going to do, run out there brandishing your weapons? No, 99% of the people will obey, for fear of punishment or even death. If there aren't enough people for surveillance then drones would be used.

    I think that the rural areas would be safer, but only for a time. Yes, going to a BO location would be the answer, but if the martial law was in effect long enough, I think that with the help of drones, the government would be able to know where everyone was. So it would be only a matter of time before they got to you at the BO location.

    Again, my 2 cents. I like some of the above discussion.
    Homer Simpson and Tully Mars like this.
  18. Brokor

    Brokor Live Free or Cry Moderator Site Supporter+++ Founding Member

    Americans have been licensed, regulated, and conditioned to the point at which the vast majority could easily be contained with policies already long in place. For example, setting up checkpoints and restricting travel will keep all those pesky urbanites out of the cities long enough to contain each zone before forces can spread out and fight the battles which will need to be fought. Ever notice how most major cities in any state are Liberal slanted and anti-gun? That's not a coincidence. They don't have to openly declare martial law, either. All they will need is another calamity to create the need for militarized presence, be it strictly police or national guard, or whatever they choose. With the media fully vested on the side of the cabal anyway, it's just a matter of cutting off internet access, and that's becoming easier by the minute with more and more people getting addicted to their phones. Not too many people these days seem to even use a PC, so if the route they've been trying to control by proxy doesn't pan out, the cell towers are a simple matter to snip. So, communication shut off, check. Travel restricted, check. Major cities locked down and under control, check. Leaves the hillbillies in the countryside a little bit wanting.

    But that's just me tossing bones.
  19. enloopious

    enloopious Rocket Surgeon

    During hurricane Katrina they did not have millions of troops to enforce martial law in a large metro area...

    They did how ever bring in foreign troops to pacify the survivors.
    Brokor likes this.
  20. snake6264

    snake6264 Combat flip flop douchebag

    But many businesses did use heavily armed private contractors
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