Survival with body armor?

Discussion in 'General Survival and Preparedness' started by sniper-66, Aug 17, 2006.

  1. sniper-66

    sniper-66 Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    How many here practice their techniques while wearing body armor? I have a sufficient quantity of body armor, however, having been training in it for several weeks, I have come to the conclusion that I haven't been training in the past to any good standard. This stuff will kick your ass over any time and any moderate to high temperature.
    You can't shoot the same with it and if you are older, God forbid trying to get up with it.
    So, the question is: What training do you do in body armor?
  2. E.L.

    E.L. Moderator of Lead Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    None, I don't have any. I thought body armor was only for those working with Dell laptops. :D

    I have looked at it, but just never bought any. I really wouldn't know where to start. Which level, which style, etc.
  3. monkeyman

    monkeyman Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    Ditto, cant afford it and dont have it so I only do the poor boy version of training with body armor, make sure you know how to duck behind rocks, dirt banks and the engin compartment of vehicles and such. lol
  4. yonder

    yonder No Despot's Servant

    Body armor will slow you down and trip you up on E&E, cover, concealment, silent movement. Body armor is better for those engaging in direct action, house entry, CQB, etc. If nobody sees you, nobody shoots at you. Better, IMO, to work on your cover, concealment, field craft, etc.
  5. TailorMadeHell

    TailorMadeHell Lurking Shadow Creature

    Body armor won't stop the elusive 22 killer. Oh wait. He's on vacation. :D Seriously in my mind it is a toss up. As said above, it is cumbersome and hot. You could train with it though you must train to the extreme to be able to wear it daily and at all outings. I think that is however only useful if you are as big as Ahnoid and as agile as Bruce Lee. So also as stated, you could use it only when acting as a wave of other armored people making a strike.

    And just for giggles, you see all these movies and actions on the news where you really don't need head armor. Nobody shoots there anyway. The head is sacred and not to be made a target. Haha. Yeah right. I can tell you one that will make a head shot. :D

    So if you want armor for a 24-7 use, might I suggest a strategic plating. Most rounds that will come your way in a non-war way will not be AP. Therefore maybe a, excuse my reference, 'Iron Bra' would work good. A couple pieces of good steel sewn into a reinforced vest. Say over your heart and lungs. A hit anywhere else could be just as deadly, though if you can't breathe and there is no blood flow to organs, you are a goner anyways. Just my thoughts anyways. Oh and yes, protect your dome.

    Might want to go back to school and take 'Ditch Diving 101'. :D
  6. Bear

    Bear Monkey+++ Founding Member Iron Monkey

    I think you bring up some good points.... Extra weight, heat, humidity... I used to run with lead weights in a vest training for wrestling.... bet I couldn't do a mile without gagging today... back then it was 6 miles up an down hills.... not a great example but keeping in shape and working out with your gear is a good idea... from footwear to full loads... bet I would slow down over 50%... not good for survival.... thanks for the post and the reminder....

    Do you also have the undershirts that are supposed to help circulate the air under the armor?... just wondering how they work.....
  7. E.L.

    E.L. Moderator of Lead Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    If you were going to attempt to add some steel to a vest then you might as well have body armor. First off, the vest unless it is a flak jacket won't hold up, second even with a little steel in there it is going to be about the same if not heavier than body armor. Third, don't think that just pieces of steel are going to hold up to a bullet.
    I have seen lots of bullets penetrate 1/4 inch metal, just wearing a couple of pieces of 1/4 plate would exhaust you, it is a lot heavier than the kevlar and ceramic plates used in the body armor of today. In addtion, modern day body armor helps to spread the force of the impact over the armor, if you had on a piece of plate and were shot in it, the shock alone could very well kill you.

    You would be wasting your time.
  8. sniper-66

    sniper-66 Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    Bear, There are shirts out there hat have venting channels in them for that purpose, but we don't get them. This armor lays flat against you and the best thing you can use is moisture wicking under shirts. They only help when you can open the armor, and are quickly becoming recognized as a fire hazard. So, hydration is the name of the game and we wear 100 oz. Camelbak's which just adds that much more weight. So, I guess to answer your question how they work, familiarization and aclimatization, you just get used to the heat, sweat, and smell!
    The problem with metal plating is that if you don't polish down the edges, you just cut the material of the carrier you put it in, and you have the issue with ballistic ability.
    Yesterday, we did convoy live fire. I was the driver, so I didn't have to get in and out, but with my Camelbak on, I was up against the steering wheel. I had to take the Camelbak off and hang it up on the dash to get to in. Even with the Camelbak off, there wasn't much room to maneuver. In my truck at home, I sit as far back as I can go until I almost can't reach the pedals. Here, I felt like I was driving a midgets car.

    As for the helmet, the ACH is a pretty good helmet. The padding system is much more comfortable, but you have to wash the pads every so often to get the funk out of them as well.
  9. Bear

    Bear Monkey+++ Founding Member Iron Monkey

    Thanks for the reply Sniper 66....

    I actually saw a unit for the vests..... that attaches to a cars air conditioning ducts to a tube that vents cool air under the vest, I guess through that undergarment with channels.... good if you have air conditioning in your vehicle and if you're gonna be in the car....

    at one time I had looked at ballistic blankets or sheilds to make a portable hide and sleep area.... concrete and steel are great.... but if you have to move.... its not so portable.... got a little one to worry about and the vests don't fit her...... also thought they would be multi use for protecting the vehicle if you had to drive through a tough area.....

    add the everything and the extra weight sure makes things tough.... add to that... heat and humidity or adverse conditions and it gets really tough.... add older or younger loved ones and its overwhelming....

    But I'd rather be thinking about these things, discussing them and doing something about them and testing and practicing now.... rather than later in the middle of "things"....

    Thanks again.... good post..... sheesh... I got some new hiking boots that are great for upright walking and climbing... but have a stiff area in front up at the top that just kills my upper foot area when I kneel or crouch.... just found that out taking the little girl ice skating rink.... that's not gonna work for me until I get that figured out or toss the shoes....
  10. sniper-66

    sniper-66 Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    It's funny that you mention the cooling hose. I completely forgot about the micro-climate cooling system that we have for the aircraft. Primarily because I haven't been allowed to fly with it yet. It is a vest that has little tubes that cool water are run through. It is worn under the armor and has a umbilicus that plugs in and allows the water to circulate. From what I hear, it is the shniz. I will have to let you know when I get over there and use it.
    I had a friend that bought a huge lot of old flak vest and lined them on the inside of a panel van and bolted them in. That way, when he bugged out, he had a armored van. Took a long time to get it put together, then within two months after completing the project, wrecked the van and totaled it. All that work down the drain!
  11. NY PRO

    NY PRO Monkey+++

    Most wounds in any combat zone are not from bullets....they're from fragments. :eek: If your up against someone who's firing artillery/airstrikes at you, then getting away from that AO is smarter than staying there to fight it out(which is what they want so they can pin you down and then anihilate you!:eek: ):DMost of the time you'll be in the prone position. Armor doesn't protect you in the prone very well[violin]causes you to use lots more water than normal. You'll have to carry double your normal amount to make up for it or you'll be dehydrated in a hurry......which will cause your senses to dull sooner and you'll become too tired to move around quicker (which is also bad for your health in combat[violin] ). This means that you'll have either carry less ammo:eek: or work out like a tri-athlete to carry the extra weight:eek: ...

    Helmets dull your hearing and cause you to stop looking upward after awhile due to their weight.

    So think long and hard before you waste your hard earned/ gov't devalued FRN's on something you don't need. And don't ever buy used armor.....It has recommended service life before it starts to loose you know how old it is? Do you want to risk your life and money to find out?

    HINT: Spend your ever devaluing cash on ammo ,self defense trainingand exercise classes and you'll be much better off.:D :unsure:
  12. sniper-66

    sniper-66 Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    Actually most wounds in combat these days, other than from IEDs are from bullets because of armor. And because of armor, a predominate amount are head wounds now that normally not seen. I gotta disagree with you there on a couple points. First, Armor does help in the prone as some shots are from the oblique or possibly above. As for the helmet, that is where it will help is in the prone. The ACH addresses a lot of the issues of firing in the prone.
    As for wearing armor, I agree that if you are out running through the woods, it's going to be tough to almost ridiculous. However, there are several situations where during a SHTF BO, you may have to recon a abandoned shelter to hole up in and this is where armor definitely comes in handy and almost requisite.
    I'm not asking if people are training like infantry moving cross country as I have no interest in that. I do own armor and have practiced with it before, but now that I am being forced to, I have found a lot of flaws in past practice that I intend on cleaning up. I think to discount armor, is a mistake that can be fatal.
    Also, armor degrades when it gets dirty, wet, and not stored properly. Properly maintained armor will last a long time.
  13. phishi

    phishi Psy-Ops Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    I can think of another point in armor's favor, defensive positions. If you are pulling static guard duty at your base/camp/compound/fort/whatever, you are not likely to be moving far. Both helmets and vests seem, at least to me, to make sense here. Protect those that are supposed to be protecting you.

  14. sniper-66

    sniper-66 Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    Yep, that is a good point as well. Gotta go confront someone on your property? Nothing says I mean business better than a good rifle and armor.
    So, with these points in mind, is anyone training it? Don't tell me I'm the only one out here in TV land?
  15. E.L.

    E.L. Moderator of Lead Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    CQB, Defense, or movement in a vehicle. Those I could see, I am too out of shape for the rest. A ruck, rifle, ammo, water, and vest is for you military guys ;) .
  16. sniper-66

    sniper-66 Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    If you take a good look at that picture, I'm not far behind you! Bad knees and heavy armor take a toll on you. Better have good knee pads as well!
  17. E.L.

    E.L. Moderator of Lead Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    :eek: ;)

    Actually I don't plan on needing the armor, I am going to have Sniper66 fly over my house strafing all those who would do me harm. :D
  18. sniper-66

    sniper-66 Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    Well, unless you plan on moving to Iraq for the next 13 months, you might want to put that plan on the back burner for ahwile!
  19. E.L.

    E.L. Moderator of Lead Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    Right now I don't think it could be much hotter over there. Surely housing is cheaper too.
  20. NY PRO

    NY PRO Monkey+++

    Helmets don't protect you from rifle fire (Not one). And the hard plates on most vests are in the front and maybe in the back (if you're strong enough). When you're in the prone position, the plates are facing down towards the ground, which means incoming rifle fire is not going to be stopped by the soft part of your vest. The plates cover only about 1 sq. ft. in the front or back and not the sides or top. If it does hit the front plate while you're in the prone, it may glance off and rip your lower body to shreds as it keeps on going. The only vest that may give you any top or side protection is the one made by Pinnacle Armor(super expensive)....which isn't even in general circulation yet! Any others is just a waste of your FRN's. I'd rather have more water than a vest or helmet. Body armor is only good for assault troops with lots of support from the rear. And most of the injuries incurred from a SHTF scenario won't be from IED's or MK-19's unless it's the gov't troops firing on you to confiscate your goodies to take for themselves and the masses! Most looters won't be organized enough to keep up an assault for very long. If they were that good they'd have there own stuff and have jobs like the rest of us slobs, which would keep them from stealing from someone else!:D

    If you do purchase the armor then you'd better train with it on constantly....cause it ain't no good unless you're wearing it. Plus you'll have to shorten your rifle stocks to accomodate the body armor or your shooting will be way off due to an improper cheek weld. Plus you'll definitely need more water(less ammo) and heavy duty knee pads cause you'll be weighing more when you hit the dirt to take cover and pounding your fragile knees into hamburger!!!:eek: Of course if your 25 and in Rambo type shape and filthy rich.....then forget all of the above! :unsure:
survivalmonkey SSL seal warrant canary