The Group

Discussion in 'General Survival and Preparedness' started by melbo, Aug 26, 2005.


  1. melbo

    melbo Hunter Gatherer Administrator Founding Member

    I think we may need a new thread on the definition of the group. Not a militia, but armed and ready, defensive yet determined, etc...
     
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  2. TLynn

    TLynn Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    melbo, an excellent suggestion.

    Definitely we're not talking militia here but armed, ready and very determined people here.
     
  3. phishi

    phishi Psy-Ops Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    My thoughts on the group have always been that it will be who ever shows. Look, you can have all the pieces set, all the roles assigned, and in the end every thing will not go exactly as planned. Some one, probably the one that everyone is counting on to show, won't make it. Or when you get there, its not just the number of people that you thought it would be, but 6 times greater, due to everyone adding extended family. My point is that no plan survives the point of initial contact.

    That being said, we would be foolish not to plan. Haveing things prepositioned would help make a transition smoother. Haveing some initial SOPs in place would add a sense of order to what is going to feel like a very choatic time. Having a group of "leaders" to shepard us through the start of what is probably a life changing event would get the process of this transition going. The key to planning is to be flexible.

    We all realize that the more flexible a plan is, the better you can cope with what is happening. If someone doesn't show, you still have to go on, you just need to be on the look out for a person with the skill set you just lost. If your population just swelled to 6 times its planned number, well, sit down, figure out what everyone can do, and get those extra people busy doing it. These are just examples, don't get hung up on my two solutions to solving those two problems. It is more important to see these solutions as aspects of being flexible.

    In my mind, as important as finding your group, is picking where you gather and deciding on SOPs. Lets say for example that the group is everyone here currently registered. We are spread across the lower 48, plus Bear in those lovely islands off our left coast. Where is the ideal spot? Do we go where the greatest number of people are? What if half our population is currently living in Chicago, do we go there? These questions could go on add nauseum. Then we would need to get on with SOPs. AR or AK platforms for standardization of ammo and parts? Glock or 1911? Battle rifle or bolt gun for long range engagement? How many weapons per individual? Are you bounced from the group because finacially you can only afford a shotgun? Again, we can go round and round with these. And yet, they must be decided before you start. Nothing would suck more than stockpiling an AK and 10,000 rounds, only to find that everyone else is running with an AR.

    So, I propose the following. At the time of this posting, we are 47 strong. Lets see if we can reach a decision on location. There are some here that I have met and would be willing to band with, others I don't know well enough yet. Some are attached to groups already, other may be looking. If we could get a group to agree on location, on line, no commitment or money down, then why not take the members of that same group and see if you can't somehow make it a reality? Some of you I'm sure are already shaking your heads, and not everyone will agree to the decision that the group makes, but why not try?

    At the very least it will be an interesting exercise in how we all think. ;)
    Phishi
     
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  4. ghrit

    ghrit Old, mean, and nasty Administrator Founding Member

    OK, I'll toss the first rock. I'm in VA, and have no place that will serve the purpose within 500 miles, tho' there is a possible in MA which could be pressed into service should the primary be unusable by reason of something near there. No matter, I think we need more than one place anyway, one just isn't enough in the event of real widespread problems. So, being on the east coast, I have to pick something local for selfish reasons. How about Tennesee? I have reason to believe there is some out of the way land that might serve the purpose well enough.

    Or maybe Seacowboys can find us a cruise ship. I can operate the engine house easily if we can't get the crew to join us.
     
  5. Minuteman

    Minuteman Chaplain Moderator Founding Member

    I'll chip in some thoughts for the debate.This is just off the top of my head.
    Say you were going to try and do something for a widely scattered group such as SM membership.I would think that you would have to have several staging areas and different phases of bug out.Something like this;

    Phase one
    A small place within a tank of gas driving distance to each member. A hunting cabin or cabin at the lake.A deer lease etc.This would be the place that you would bug out to for the short term SHTF.A natural disaster,a black out etc.A few family and friends holed up for a few days to a few weeks until the lights come back on.This would be your personal bug out area.

    Phase Two
    The disaster lasts longer than a few weeks and /or is more widespread.Returning home anytime soon is out of the question.Being at a local tourist/hunting/fishing/vacation spot is an idea that lots of folks have.The place is getting crowded.Game being over hunted and getting scarce.Time to move on to the "Rendevous Point". A place in each geographic area for members to link up.Areas being NE, SE, MidWest, SW, and NW.A place that most people fleeing would not think of going to.So someplace away from lakes, tourist spots etc.Maybe a small piece of land in an off the main road area.One critical piece of equipment here would need to be some form of radio communication to contact the other members.Maybe each area group would contribute to purchasing a shortwave radio.

    Phase Three
    Things aren't getting any better.The idea of ever returning to your original home is forgotten.The MBZs are rampant.Small groups are easy prey.The only safety lies in submitting to Government run "Refugee Camps (internment,forced labor camps).Time to move again.Group proceeds to Staging areas.NE,SE groups move west to link up with MidWest groups.SW group moves north to link up with NW gruop.

    Phase Four
    It is full blown TEOTWAWKI.Life as we have known it will never be the same again.It is time to rise out of the ashes and establish some type of new life,new society.All regional groups would merge together in some pre-selected spot.

    For discussion purposes I would say the Pacific NorthWest.For these reasons;

    The area would have to have the most available wilderness area in the nation.My neck of the woods has several multi million acre national forrests.And this is where I will be in the first Three phases.But, these areas have towns in them and many thousands of people around them,and many thousands more that are familliar with them.So in a long term SHTF you would find that the good ole boys may outnumber the wildlife in these heretofore "wild" areas.

    Local groups would be banding together and I could see small Nation within Nation groups carving out large sections of a post TEOTWAWKI world.You may well find yourself in the middle of "The New Aryan Homeland' or "New Africa' or "Bubba and Billy Joes redneck kingdum"

    So a final Phase Four locale would heve to be determined.A place where people from all over the nation could come together and form a new society.Freedom loving people who don't need or want big brothers help.A new nation of independent,like minded,people who share common moral and ethical beliefs.Who believe in the sanctity of life and the right of people to rule thier own lives and destiny.People who believe that as long as your not harming others that it's nobodys business how you live your life.A new society of free people,like the mythical Pheonix, rising out of the ashes of a post carbon,post SHTF,post TEOTWAWKI,post madhouse world.

    Just my thoughts on the subject.
     
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  6. phishi

    phishi Psy-Ops Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    I like the idea of having multiple possiblities for relocation. Look at what is going on in NO. What if your only bug out local was in Mississippi or Alabama? You would be jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire. If you knew that you had friends in Texas or else where, you would realize that you might be better off heading that way. Its good to have some options.

    Tennesse and Kentucky are good central locations (IMO) for anyone east of the Mississippi river. I believe that Vermont and New Hampshire hold potential also, but they are somewhat isolated. I would not go much deeper into the south, nor much futher north. I admitt that northern Michigan holds some attraction to me, but I think that it would become over populated with folks from Detroit and in the end would suffer from the same level of isolation as VT & NH.

    West of the Mississippi I would only be interested in the Pacific NW. I fear that water would become a huge issue in most of the other areas. MM posted that the wilderness out in the PNW is the largest available and I believe him to be correct. Water is not as much an issue out there, and I must admitt that I know nothing about how the area would support crops. I assume that it would be favorable, perhaps some one from that area could chime in?

    What we seem to be pointing to is multiple spots that would be capable of supporting a group of "refugees". They would need to have some form of shelter in place, as well as some supplies prepositioned. They would also need to be capable of networking with the other spots. It would seem that most would be in favor of a tribal style leadership under the guidance of a "chief".

    Not a bad idea.........
    phishi
     
  7. TLynn

    TLynn Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    A good portion of the PNW can support crops phishi. Lots of the area is known for it's orchards and such depending on what part of the PNW you're in. What a lot of people don't realize is that a lot of it is also high country desert, experiences drought (like a good portion of it is in right now) and while parts are not overpopulated there are some that are very near overpopulated areas.

    You'd almost have to not consider anyplace near the Seattle area even though it has the rainfall and good forests (and the climate) because of the constant rainfall and overpopulation) because too many people would be trying to do what Minuteman was saying about spreading out and trying stuff. Plus the minute you started moving in country you'd hit the more fertile area and partial desert. There if you're not close to water you'll end up dying. A desert is a desert whether summer or winter and it's too high up so you end up with too severe of a winter and not enough shelter (they've basically taken away all the trees.

    Move down to Oregon you've got that dang heavy population on the coast again and once you move inland I don't know much about anything till you get closer to Idaho (I just don't care for the pc attitude of Oregon so I stay out of it for the most part). But it's got your rugged mountains, it's scattered communities, etc., but it also has drought right now and a lack of water on this side of the blues...so while you can get great crops unless you've got a way to get water - nope.

    Idaho is also suffering a drought and while the least heavy populated same thing. You need water.

    Some very rugged country, lots of areas to get lost in, but lots of forest fires have also occurred over the years. And lots of people here (though lot more idiots who'd head straight for the tourist areas too) who know where to head because we're a hunting and fishing state. Plus a good portion of our population owns guns and we're not that afraid to use them. Might make it very hard to carve out any piece of an area for your own. Even in a wilderness.
     
  8. ghrit

    ghrit Old, mean, and nasty Administrator Founding Member

    So far as Vermont and New Hampshire go, I've spent entirely too much time in New England to advocate for NH. A tremendous number of people have places there that would suit, but again, if something dramatic takes place, that's where most of Easterm Mass will go. VT is somewhat better, and there is a case to be made for way far north NY along the VT border. Much south of that, and you are into the high rent district, where the NYC escapees will be found. Northern Maine has possibilities, but is pretty far off the beaten track. (That is good and bad, obviously.)

    I like northern Michigan, but as has been mentioned, a lot of pseudo woodsmen from the Detroit area will be there. From what I've seen, they are a dangerous lot with guns in their hands.

    PNW is good on the eastern side of Casades, but water would be a problem most of the year unless we can find a spot along one of the rivers. Likewise Wyoming, but Pinedale isn't too bad for water. (Horrible for summer squeetoes, tho'.)
     
  9. Minuteman

    Minuteman Chaplain Moderator Founding Member

    I am not all that familliar with NE.But I would think that just for the sheer population size I would get out of the New England states and the entire Eastern seaboard.Just lookin at a map I would say that SW Pennsylvania would be a likely candidate for the NE group to make for in Phase 2.Maybe somewhere like the Ohio river valley area.

    I would look at Tennesee for the SE.

    And Idaho for The SW and West coast.

    West of the Miss.I would say the Texas guys and Mo.,Kansas and that area link up in Western Arkansas.

    For Phase 3 The NE group links with the SE group in Tennesee and starts heading west.They link with the Mid-west Group in Ark.Then all head NW through Mo,Neb. and Wyoming to link up with the SW and West coast group.

    My thoughts for a final destination would be somewhere around the three corner area of NW Wyoming,SW Montana, NE Idaho.The population size in that area averages about 5 ppl per sq. mile.Less than a million population each in Wy. and Montana.
    I don't know what the climate,growing season etc. is like.

    I think in a phase four post TEOTWAWKI world this would be the best area to be. Anywhere near the southern border would not be advisable.Same for both coasts.
    And the plains states would be prime and fought over farmland for any type of Gov. that would be left or reformed.

    As for our friend on the island.Don't know what to say bear.Buy a boat.
     
  10. Bear

    Bear Monkey+++ Site Supporter+++ Founding Member Iron Monkey

    "As for our friend on the island.Don't know what to say bear.Buy a boat."

    This is an interesting thread..... I have a couple friends in the Pacific Northwest with about 25 acres bordering a national forest and funded my share of preps for storage there just in case.... but I'm not all that confident that its the place to be.... too much population density.... but it's someplace to go as an option where I've put in my share .... got family in California.... but that's definitely out.... got more family in Texas with a 1000 acre ranch.... but too close to the border and water is a problem..... funny thing about the boat.... I think for a coastal resident.... its a smart thing.... sail boat preferrably... no need for power... got to be large enough to store preps and watermakers.... and close enough to get to quickly.... a boat is not a bad bug out plan for us in the middle of the ocean... gotta be at least 30 feet or larger though.... get on and go as far as you can and stay out of the way.....
    Hope you don't mind if I watch this one and chime in every once in a while.... I'm definitely interested in this.....
     
  11. phishi

    phishi Psy-Ops Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    Sail boats would be good in and around the great lakes also. Yes, this would be weather dependant, but when I lived in Chicago I was closer to the lake than to a major express way. I figured if I ever needed to get back to Michigan a boat was a potential option. If I ever have to move back, I'll invest in a sea kayak as a way to get out of dodge. Just hug the coast line until I'm clear of the industrial sprawl then walk in what ever direction I need to go.

    Interesting what people are saying about the PNW. I figured that it was a better option than what I'm hearing. I do like the idea of the 3 corner area. I'm not sure that a phase 4 destination could be decided yet. Too many variables. If we are smart, we would save that decision till last and have at each of the spots room for the other groups.

    Good points about the NE also, I forget that New England is so small and yet so populated. I also like the idea of the east group meeting up with the middle group. These are not to far away from each other that they couldn't help each other if needed.

    Perhaps we should attempt to discuss this on more of a regional level? An additional thought is that this would be easier if meeting face to face. Maybe we should be attempting to have get togethers?

    Phishi
     
  12. Bear

    Bear Monkey+++ Site Supporter+++ Founding Member Iron Monkey

    "Perhaps we should attempt to discuss this on more of a regional level? An additional thought is that this would be easier if meeting face to face. Maybe we should be attempting to have get togethers? "

    Sounds good to me.... How about my house ????? b:: [beer] :shock: :eek:
     
  13. TLynn

    TLynn Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    bear, nice idea for the get together, I'm for it.

    As for the PNW, don't get me wrong. There are definitely some places that would work and believe it or not it can produce a lot of food. But we've got the water situation again and the areas that are set up to produce food are well populated now (they are close to the Snake River and other major rivers). The further into non populated areas you go means the more rugged and more mountainous (also means the less level ground for growing crops).

    Does that mean you can't grow crops - no, just means it'll be harder. Also means you have a much shorter growing season. Plus, if the weather is screwed up like it has been, you may not grow much at all. So that means you need to have the ability to create some type of greenhouse to get a head start, etc.

    If you're lucky find a place near a hot springs (they do occur naturally in all different areas of Idaho and other parts of the northwest (I'm leaving the pacific part out because the closer you get to the pacific ocean the more people you're going to find).

    Last but not least...there are believe it or not quite a few survivalist type of people already in my state who do not like people period. They've been living here a long time and live in some of the most surprising places. You do not want to run across them. They will kill you without blinking an eye. Is this publicized no...but it is a fact of life. I can guarantee you it will not be as easy as some people think to go into certain areas and try and take over.
     
  14. Tracy

    Tracy Insatiably Curious Moderator Founding Member

    I can enlighten for the PNW; west of the cascades, east of the coastline.

    From Portland to Eugene, along the I-5 corridor, is where the majority of the population resides in this state. Would most of these people know what to do? No. Those who live there would be caught by a highway system that won't support mass chaos. It barely supports rush hour traffic. Downtown Portland is split by a river, which means that only half of the population has an east exit without crossing a bridge.

    We live at app. 300' above sea level. Within half an hour, we can be at 2,000+ or higher, depending on which direction we go.

    There is a lot of natural shelter to be found in the way of caves. Beyond that; between the valleys, old growth and the underbrush, you could go sight unseen/unnoticed unless and until you built a large fire. The terrain is thick with underbrush, so hiking isn't easy for the majority, but manageable for the determined (or curious).

    The soil is rich/fertile and can grow nearly everything that will sustain the climate (no citrus). So much grows here, that I find it hard to believe that one couldn't find sustinance, should the need arise. Fruits, vegies, grains, nuts.

    Rivers are plentiful. Since most of the terrain is foothills, ground high enough to be safe from flooding, yet close enough to water sources, is easily found. You're not far from glacier water. Head waters easily found.

    A lot of the old "public" land between the cascade range and the coastal range has been purchased by BLM, so you can get there by foot or cutting a gate chain on an old logging road. The only ones you seem to run into are loggers, however most of them have moved to areas that they're "allowed" to log in that don't have some sort of endangered bird perched in 'em. Besides, if it really did hit the fan, I'm guessing that the trucks wouldn't be running.

    Volcanic activity is the major natural threat here. Tsunami if you're west of the coastal range.
     
  15. TLynn

    TLynn Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    Tracy, remember though that there are quite a few people in the area you live in, and that's a factor to consider. Many of them will also be considering that BLM land. And for all that your area may have it's PC people who are sheeple, there are quite a few wolves out there who do know how to use guns and hunt, etc.

    We're looking for areas where people are not going to congregate as much...I'm not so sure that the place/places you are talking about would not be one of the first if not second people with any smarts would start heading to.

    If we were in the first wave to get there with enough resources to hold it - great maybe we'd be okay. If we don't have the manpower - we're screwed.
     
  16. monkeyman

    monkeyman Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    I tend to think that there would be some big down sides to the PNW. Drought, wild fires, short growing seasons, big wild areas which will atract massive groups of folks who are closer to the wolf end of the spectrum and a lot of whom wont have a live and let live mentality if the crops dont come in (some who wouldnt bother to plant but would plan to raid those who did for thier crops, also trade would still be important and if to isolated that becomes more difficult.
    I would tend to look at areas in say NW Missouri, and not just due to it being closer to me. :D Missouri from the last stats I saw was second only to Texas in cattle production and not all THAT far distant especialy when you consider we are 1/3 or so the size. If on the west side of MO near the MO river you are close to KS and with similar climate and soil as well as close to a major water transport so trade from wide areas would be an option sooner (keep in mind you HAVE to have some salt and that will have to come mostly from the sea). In this area you have some of the most fertile soil in the world which will suport a lot of cattle and crops. The area is open with only widly scattered cities and large towns then a lot of 'town' all over that range from 100 to 750 or 1000 populations and many of those are inflated numbers if only counting those in the town ( these usualy count all those in the area with a mailing adress for that town). We have a long growing season with typicly no frost from mid May to mid Oct being a fairly safe bet. While there are a lot of good old boys and farmers you wouldnt want to try to walk over folks are genuinly friendly (in rural areas) to a point that if you dont do them wrong allies would likely be in no shortage. Rain is plentiful generaly in all but July and August and some times late June but even in those times you still generaly get an inch or 2 a month. Short version, excelent land for crops and live stock, 5 acreas would more than support a person and 10 if decently managed at all would support a family of 3 possibly 4 so 1000 acres would easily support 100+ folks with plenty left to trade and up to 4oo-500 folks if needed. Land also sells for an average in many rural areas of MO for around $1000/acre. It also has the advantage of being centraly located for all in the contenental US. I tend to figure being able to supply food and water on an ongoing basis is the number 1 priority followed by security but most areas can be made defincable easier than made productive. Get 500+ acres in an area away from the 4-5 metro areas in MO and off the main super hyways and you should do pretty well.
    Just my take on it.
     
  17. monkeyman

    monkeyman Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    I also wanted to mention, I see lots of folks talk all the time about wanting retreats that but up to large tracts of government lands. Where do you gigure they will set up work/refugee camps if they still exist? Also any of the folks who have any brains and have been stuck in the citys will be wanting to get someplace where they can eat, especialy once all the stocks have been looted and gone through, where do you figure they will head? Pick up any map and you can see all the tracts of government land and there would be TONS of urbanites headed there with the thought that they have as much claim to it as anyone else and would tend to fight anyone who disagreed, concequently if your land buts up to those lands you will have these folks over crowding those lands and wanting to move onto yours as well as to steal from you to the point you would have to be shooting them like prairie dogs to keep them from plundering you fields and stores. Just though I would mention it for any who hadnt considered that side of things.
     
  18. phishi

    phishi Psy-Ops Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    Just got off the phone with melbo, we are wondering if this discussion might be continued face to face at the Knob Creek Machine Gun Shoot. It is held outside of Louisville, Kentucky on the weekend of Oct. 14-16. Clyde, melbo and myself all went last spring and camped. Not much concerning facilities, basicly a field where you set up what you will, but we made it home for the night. Check out the link for pricing:

    http://www.machinegunshoot.com/index.html

    If people want to fly in, we'll figure out a way to get you from the airport to the shoot and back. Some tips to prove that we can learn from our mistakes; fire wood should not be forgotten, getting there early ensures a spot on the tree line surrounding the field, ear/sun/bug protection are a good thing. Camping is seperate from the shoot, so if you have no interest in going in to see the gun show or the shoot, you do not need to. You must pay to get into the campground even if you are not staying the night, this is enforced.

    The gun show is typically pretty good, bulk orders of ammo can be purchased and hauled home without that pesky hazmat fee. Surplus items as well as the usual and unusual collection of guns and knives are available for you to drool over. Busse knives has been at previous shows, and class three weapons are for sale for those that may dabble.

    Its a pretty good bet that Clyde, melbo, and myself will be going again. Anyone interested?

    Phishi

    *I am not employed by Knob Creek, I just live nearby and think its cool to go! [beer]
     
  19. melbo

    melbo Hunter Gatherer Administrator Founding Member

    Seems as good a spot and date as any for a meeting. Most convenient for the East of the miss crowd.

    This has some potential and I like the way the wheels are turning in this thread. Minuteman has brought up some excellent points on phase I - IV... I guess we always think of BO as in the big one but a few in between steps make sense and are easier to accomplish.

    Knob Creek is a lot of fun too. I spoke with Clyde a few days ago and he was in again.
     
  20. monkeyman

    monkeyman Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    Well, I dont know about others but I dont figure I would be able to make it. No way I could afford to drive with these gas prices, wont fly since they have gotten hyper stupid about things, and dont know about a train or what that would cost or how close it could get.
    For those local though it sounds like a cool chance to get together.
     
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