The 'new' Community

Discussion in 'General Survival and Preparedness' started by melbo, Sep 4, 2005.


  1. melbo

    melbo Hunter Gatherer Administrator Founding Member

    So you have made it to the 200 acre Retreat, You and the best of your Group and all it's supplies actually made it and are doing relatively well. Most of the Group SOPs and other rules have worked out as well. The surrounding area is pretty vacant with a few other small Groups. Maybe some Squared away Farmers and other Kind families. It's a really good meld.

    Months go by.

    The Group is really in full swing, You've picked up members and the whole Group has settled into it's daily routine. You have made a few connections with some other Groups. A "Group Rep" has been designated to handle the Logistics of communicating and dealing with the other Groups. You've managed to work out some territories and responsibilities between some of these groups. Some random MZB attacks have been thwarted and a form of society is slowly rebuilding. Some talk of Further organization and Elections for some Representitives for the region, (say 1-2000 acre zone) are looming.

    Months pass

    Talk of rebuildng a form of government are heard more and more. How does the Group represent itself in this new and innocent time? Does it have a "Leader"? If it does, what is in check to keep the leader from declaring that he is "too busy with Important Diplomacy with the other groups to work the field"?

    Maybe this Leader really is too busy traveling and trying to sort things out to work the fields, hunt, butcher game, etc... Who then provides for him and his family? Does he need a larger House to host other, traveling Group Leaders? Maybe some comfortable Chairs to negotiate Treaties and Food trades on? A nice Pen?

    I think he might. After all, he is securing the further growth and well being of the Community, right? At least that's what he convincingly told us at the last Group Meeting.

    How to we keep from returning to Business as Usual and Political Corruption, Favoritism, and "All Animals are Equal, But some Animals are More Equal than Others"?

    TEOTWAWKI would really suck, but I have often had the dream that the silver lining would be the reset of all we live with now, a new and better system. Free from Graft, Corruption and other Politcs... But, wouldn't it slowly build up to the same type of one we have now?

    me thinks yes. Leadership has always had it's perks and Government "Service" is nothing more than a silver platter with a bed of Cash rather than lettuce...

    So, Group, how can we change that course?
    Maybe It should be that the Position of Leader, well agreed upon by the Group as best for the Group,(election), is really a pretty crappy job; more of a sentence.

    Yes, the leader needs all of the above "extra space" to do his duty, but, he is also in charge of cleaning Latrine Pits too! Maybe he is the one that must do the Fat Rendering at night, after that hard day of Diplomacy... I don't know, I think that the job of The Leader should be given, (voted) to the Best candidate, but it shouldn't be too comfortable. Maybe it's as simple as the Leader having to also provide for his family by his own toil like the others. Favors and anything even seeming like Graft would be considered Treason and the Rope hanging from the nearby Oak tree would be the reminder?

    Human nature will always try to add convenience and affluence to positions of Power. I think we've all heard it before: "Power Corrupts, Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely". I think we could stop that with a few simple SOPS.

    What do you think?
     
  2. RightHand

    RightHand Pioneer in a New World Moderator Founding Member

    I think that if the community maintained fairly right isolation, this utopian government might have a chance of survival but if too much exposure to the "outside world" occured, the effort would fail if not in the first generation than in subsequent generations.
     
  3. monkeyman

    monkeyman Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    I saw a deal on a documentary once about some tribe or whatever where each year the leader had to pierce his 'manhood' with the spine from a stingray.... How many of the power hungry polititions do you think would go for that? Basicly I figure make it a non paid position and there can be a town hll or what have you where those visition can stay and the leader can have an office. Also have the person reelected often with the ability to also vote in, out, or treasonest and if they are voted to have betrayed thier constituants intrest they are guilty of treason and executed. Sounds like a pretty crappy job? Who here wouldnt take it to provide for the wellbeing and freedom of thier fellow citizens as well as thier families and children? How many of our modern politicians do you think would take that job and fill it as they do now? Basicly if it has no perks but high prices if you screw over those you represent only those who truely wish to serve will apply while those seaking power over others will do so through material means.
     
  4. TLynn

    TLynn Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    There is no such thing as a utopian government. And isolation for all that it can be a good thing has it's own problems - especially when it comes to the gene pool for the subsequent generations.

    I truly believe that government in and of itself can only maintain a reasonably uncorupt presence when in a small group and when it is not one person but the community itself that is the government.

    Once you have someone who is more than a figurehead (and I don't mean a figurehead as in a puppet but someone who truly does have a huge power) then you've already headed down the road we like all those before us have already seen and are seeing today. Corruption and greed my friends.

    Ideally, the leader and his or her family would be no different than any other. By your own words melbo you've already fallen into the supposition that the leaders family would not have to work - in a small community that's impossible when it comes to survival. Not even the indian tribes did that. Even their leadership worked - and that included hunting and killing. How do you think they maintained leadership?

    It wasn't just being a spokesman...

    The family would have to work as well.

    And a bigger house for the leader? Nope, one creates a community house for anything like that. The leader doesn't get anything more than anyone else. He/she has to earn/build just like the rest of the group.

    And that's what I've got to say on the matter.
     
  5. melbo

    melbo Hunter Gatherer Administrator Founding Member

    That was where I needed the Devil's Advocate Smilie...
     
  6. TLynn

    TLynn Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    One of the things I've done for many years my friend...I take the opposing side of almost every argument. Whether I agree with the person or not. You've always got to consider all sides, especially in something like this.
     
  7. monkeyman

    monkeyman Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    I would have to say also that if it appeared plausable at all to continue to exist without joining under a new government that was anything more that a confederation which would come together in times of need I would prefer to remain independent. Keep the power at the base where it belongs not at the top where it is more easily abused.
     
  8. Minuteman

    Minuteman Chaplain Moderator Founding Member

    I don't recall who said it but I like the quote "He who governs best, governs least".

    I think that a post TETWAWKI Government should have as few laws and rules as possible.A few basic laws with prescribed penalties, imposed swiftly and with no partiality.As long as you are not harming or intruding on your nieghbors then nothing you do should be the business of anyone else, especially a Gov.. If you are burning leaves in your yard and the smoke is drifting straight to your nieghbors window then you should extinguish it.If you don't, even after the nieghbor asks you too, and you get your lights punched out.Well that is your problem.No police to call, no lawyers to sue.

    I have always invisioned a post T world where there are a myriad of groups around the country.If you don't like the rules or the beliefs of this one then leave.People of a like mind will naturally band together.So it should be pretty simple to govern a group like that.One of our nations problems has always been to try and be all things to all people.That just doesn't work.That is why our founding fathers set it up where each individual state ruled themselves.If the majority of the people in that state wanted concealed carry then that was the law.If you didn't like that then you were free to move somewhere else.The erosion of states rights and the encroachment of federalism into our soveriegn states was the biginning of the end of this nation.

    A free people are quite capable of governing themselves, and those that aren't won't last long in that type of society.A live and let live or get the hell out society.

    As to leadership.There of necessity must be some.But it need not be a political ruling position.A society who has made it through the ravages of a TEOTWAWKI world will have no need, nor tolerance for, a bureucratic governmental sytem.I would think that a governing council would better serve.A gruop of a few members who would hear grievances and render fair judgements.A rotating position for all members of the community possibly.There would be need of a central and recognized leader for negotiations and such, but I see it as more of a ceremonial position.With not much real authority.All decisions would have to be brought before the council for approval.

    Using our indian tribe example.Most chiefs were not the ruling,final authority figure that many assumed them to be.That is why most treaties never worked.The US Gov. assumed these chiefs to have king like powers to negotiate and command adherence to treaties.They didn't.They were more a figure head and the "Council" made the final decisions on important matters.

    This is an interesting subject.Not much thought is put into a post T world.Most times we focus on just surviving the initial event.
     
  9. melbo

    melbo Hunter Gatherer Administrator Founding Member

    Your reference to out of the Ashes and fifedoms got me thinking tonight.. Much of the above was Tongue in Cheek. But, it is good to think about how to build a new world free of the constraints we take for granted today.

    I like the Council/tribe ideas. I think we discussed earlier that it may be best to have a Defensive leader for times when under direct attack from hostiles, otherwise a council is good for keeping things sane, so long as the council isn't set up like the Supreme Court. :D

    bedtime, morning minuteman!
     
  10. Minuteman

    Minuteman Chaplain Moderator Founding Member

    AWW Man!! Just when I get fired up everyone else is done for the night.Be glad when I get back to a decent time zone.Looks like next week. b::
     
  11. Minuteman

    Minuteman Chaplain Moderator Founding Member

    We talked about the series "Out Of the Ashes".If anyone hasn't read this series it is very good.It describes a limited nuclear attack on the US that practically wipes out the existing government and infrastructure.It is about a group of survivors that come together to rebuild a new society "Out of the Ashes".While I don't agree with all of the tenets(it gets a bit socialistic).I do think that much of it is an ideal to ascribe to.Here is the "Manifesto" of the Tri States (the name of the nation they establish).Not much there to disagree with.


    THE TRI-STATE MANIFESTO
    Excerpted from: "FROM THE ASHES: AMERICA REBORN"
    By William W. Johnstone

    AS ADVOCATES AND SUPPORTERS OF THE TRI-STATE PHILOSOPHY, WE BELIEVE:

    THAT FREEDOM, LIKE RESPECT, IS EARNED AND MUST BE CONSTANTLY NURTURED AND PROTECTED FROM THOSE WHO WOULD TAKE IT AWAY.

    THAT IT IS THE RIGHT OF EVERY LAW-ABIDING CITIZEN TO PROTECT HIS OR HER LIFE, LIBERTY, AND PERSONAL PROPERTY BY ANY MEANS AT HAND WITHOUT FEAR OF ARREST, CRIMINAL PROSECUTION, OR LAWSUIT. THE RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS IS CENTRAL TO MAINTAINING TRUE PERSONAL FREEDOM.

    THAT LIBERAL POLITICIANS, THEORISTS, AND SOCIALISTS ARE THE GREATEST THREAT TO FREEDOM LOVING AMERICANS AND THAT THEIR MISGUIDED EFFORTS HAVE CAUSED GRAVE INJUSTICES IN THE FIELDS OF CRIMINAL LAW, EDUCATION, AND PUBLIC WELFARE:

    THEREFORE IN RESPECT TO CRIMINAL LAW:
    AN EFFECTIVE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM SHOULD BE GUIDED BY THESE BASIC TENETS:
    -OUR COURTS SHOULD STOP PAMPERING CRIMINALS.
    -THE PUNISHMENT MUST FIT THE CRIME.
    -JUSTICE MUST BE FAIR BUT ALSO BE SWIFT AND, IF NECESSARY, HARSH.
    -THERE IS NO PERFECT SOCIETY ONLY A FAIR ONE.

    THEREFORE IN RESPECT TO EDUCATION:
    EDUCATION IS THE KEY TO SOLVING PROBLEMS IN THE SOCIETY AND THE LACK OF IT IS THE ROOT CAUSE OF AMERICA'S DECLINE.
    AN EFFECTIVE SYSTEM OF EDUCATION:
    -MUST STRESS HARD DISCIPLINE ALONG WITH THE ARTS, SCIENCES, FINE MUSIC, AND BASIC SKILLS IN READING, WRITING, AND MATHEMATICS.
    -MUST TEACH FAIRNESS AND RESPECT.
    -MUST TEACH MORALS, THE DIGNITY OF LABOR, AND THE VALUE OF FAMILY.

    THEREFORE IN RESPECT TO WELFARE:
    WELFARE (WE PREFER WORKFARE) IS RESERVED ONLY FOR THE EDERLY, INFIRM, AND THOSE WHO NEED A TEMPORARY HELPING HAND AND THE WELFARE SYSTEM MUST ALSO:
    -INSTILL THE CONCEPT OF HONEST WORK FOR HONEST PAY.
    -INSTILL THE CONCEPT THAT EVERYONE WHO CAN WORK MUST WORK AND BE FORCED TO WORK IF NECESSARY.
    -INSTILL THE CONCEPT THAT THERE IS NO FREE LUNCH AND THAT BEING PRODUCTIVE CITIZENS IN A FREE SOCIETY IS THE ONLY HONORABLE PATH TO TAKE.
    THAT RACIAL PREJUDICE AND BIGOTRY ARE INTOLERABLE IN A FREE AND VITAL SOCIETY
    -NO ONE IS WORTHY OF RESPECT SIMPLY BECAUSE OF THE COLOR OF THEIR SKIN.
    -RESPECT IS EARNED BY ACTIONS AND BY DEEDS, NOT BY BIRTHRIGHT.
    -THERE ARE ONLY TWO TYPES OF PEOPLE ON EARTH, DECENT AND INDECENT. THOSE WHO ARE DECENT WILL FLOURISH, THOSE WHO ARE NOT WILL PERISH.
    -NO LAWS LAID DOWN BY A BODY OF GOVERNMENT CAN MAKE ONE PERSON LIKE ANOTHER.

    A FREE AND JUST SOCIETY MUST BE PROTECTED AT ALL COSTS EVEN IF IT MEANS SHEDDING THE BLOOD OF ITS CITIZENS. THE WILLINGNESS OF CITIZENS TO LAY DOWN THEIR LIVES FOR THE BELIEF IN FREEDOM IS A CORNERSTONE OF TRUE DEMOCRACY; WITHOUT THAT WILLINGNESS THE STRUCTURE OF SOCIETY WILL SURELY CRUMBLE AND FALL INTO THE ASHES OF HISTORY.

    THEREFORE:
    -ALONG WITH THE INALIENABLE RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS, AND THE INALIENABLE RIGHT TO PERSONAL PROTECTION, A STRONG SKILLED, AND WELL-EQUIPPED MILITARY IS ESSENTIAL TO MAINTAINING A FREE SOCIETY.
    -A STRONG MILITARY ELIMINATES THE NEED FOR "ALLIES," ALLOWING THE SOCIETY TO FOCUS ON THE NEEDS OF ITS CITIZENS.
    -THE BUSINESS OF CITIZENS IS NOT THE BUSINESS OF THE WORLD UNLESS THE RIGHTS OF CITIZENS ARE INFRINGED UPON BY OUTSIDE FORCES.
    -THE DUTY OF THOSE WHO LIVE IN A FREE SOCIETY IS CLEAR, PERSONAL FREEDOM IS NOT NEGOTIABLE.

    IN CONCLUSION:
    WE WHO SUPPORT THE TRI-STATE PHILOSOPHY AND LIVE BY ITS CODE AND ITS LAWS PLEDGE TO DEFEND IT BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY. WE PLEDGE TO WORK FAIRLY AND JUSTLY TO BUILD AND MAINTAIN A SOCIETY IN WHICH ALL CITIZENS ARE TRULY FREE AND ARE ABLE TO PURSUE PRODUCTIVE LIVES WITHOUT FEAR AND WITHOUT INTERVENTION.
     
  12. melbo

    melbo Hunter Gatherer Administrator Founding Member

    That's what I was looking for. To the Point , no-nosense, form of leadership with proper and enforcable checks and balance.
    No sense in recreating the same system of fat and immobilizing politics that we currently have
     
  13. Minuteman

    Minuteman Chaplain Moderator Founding Member

    This is an article about the Tri States Philosophy.And before anyone gets the wrong impression.I am a fan of the series, and I do like the ideas that the author advocates for how a society should be formed.BUT, I do not endorse the Tri States Coalition or recommend anyone join it.If you don't know, that is a group that formed to promote Tri State ideals and to sponsers grassroot political movements.
    There have been a lot of accusations about the real purpose of the coalition and some of its practices.So I would say that caution would be advised if you come across thier website. But I do like the way they think.


    Has the Tri-States Time Come?
    by Brian Bills - Published: 01.25.01

    Back in 1985 I had the good fortune to come into possession of a book titled "Blood in the Ashes" by William W. Johnstone. This book turned out to be just one in a long series of books written about life in a post-holocaust America and the attempts of a group of people to rebuild society. The point that stuck out in my mind the most was that these people, who were called the "rebels" for their desire to break away from the accepted norms of American political ideology, did not want to see America go back to the way it was before the war. These people wanted a return to the constitution and a more common sense form of government.

    "Just what is a common sense form of government?" you might ask. The concept is so simple that it seems to have eluded today's bureaucrats and social elite completely. The concept is this; a government must be instituted and laws passed that society must follow or you will have anarchy. The similarity between what we have today and what Mr.. Johnstone envisioned ends there.

    In the Tri-States, as the area of the country where the rebels settled was called, a person is responsible for his or her own actions. There are no excuses made for why little Johnny got drunk and mowed down a couple of elderly folks crossing the street. Little Johnny broke the law and must pay the price. End of story. No sobbing about how he wasn't loved enough by his father or the prom queen wouldn't date him or he didn't make first string on the team. The laws in the Tri-States are few and easily understood by all. There is no room for legal wrangling and loopholes. Children are taught both in the home and in the schools that breaking the law is wrong, PERIOD! Values such as respect for others, an honest day's work for an honest day's pay, obeying the law, and upholding the values set forth in the constitution are paramount in the education of the young.

    There is no such thing as welfare in the Tri-States. If an adult is physically and mentally capable of working, that person works or gets out. The young, the old, and the handicapped are still properly taken care of but if you are a normal, capable adult, don't expect to sit around waiting for the welfare check because it won't happen.

    I have only hit on some of the high points of what has come to be known as the Tri-States philosophy and I apologize to Mr. Johnstone for I feel I have not really done it due justice in this article. I wish, however, to go on to discuss other things regarding this matter.

    As the years have gone by and I have seen more and more of the way the government has abused and taken advantage of the law abiding citizens of this country I have begun to wonder, is it time to give the Tri-States a shot? To many of you reading this, the concepts I have outlined here are an echo of your own feelings and ideas of the way things should be. How many times have we all sat down at the coffee shop or the dinner table and talked about the way things ought to be instead of the way things are? How many of us would give it all for a chance to live in a society where you could leave the keys in your car or walk any part of your town at night without fear of being mugged, or worse. Just imagine, if you will, a society where the law abiding citizen has the right to defend what belongs to them without fear of lawsuit or criminal prosecution for the simple act of exercising the God-given rights which have been outlined in the Constitution. Let's look at the pros and cons of setting up such a society today.

    On the plus side, as I stated in the last paragraph, it would be wonderful to live in a society where prejudices, hate, and crime have all but been erased. Where everyone is truly equal. Not in fact but in opportunity. Just as I don't have the skills or aptitude to design a skyscraper, I have no doubt there are plenty of architects out there who don't know the first thing about auto mechanics or how to actually build what they have designed. Everyone has a skill which is useful and it is pure foolishness to think that because little Johnny can't perform complicated algebra equations that the grading curve should be altered to make him feel better about himself. Let him find something he's good at and go in that direction. A society such as this would be capable of functioning with an absolute minimum of government interference because the people would be taught what is right and wrong without the need for expensive lawyers and all kinds of legalistic mumbo-jumbo. Money would be saved by not pouring billions into worthless projects such as finding out that most snakes are left-handed, (Yes, this one is for real,) or wasting resources on non-workable social programs. Foreign aid would be drastically cut until, and if, we took care of the problems in our own country instead of turning a blind eye to them. It just doesn't make sense to give another country several hundred million dollars in aid when people on our own soil are starving, homeless, and lacking in even the most basic necessities of life.

    Now, for the darker side. Actually setting up such a society in this day would be a monumental undertaking. It would require the efforts of thousands, if not millions, of people all working together toward the same goal. Although I believe there are at least that many folks in this country who would love to see such a society come into being, it is a sad fact that noone seems able to truly get organized enough. You have a few here, a dozen there, a couple hundred over there, all with their own ideas about what should be done and all of them pulling in their own direction. If something like this were to be attempted, everybody who wanted change would have to get together under one banner and work for the same goal.

    In Mr.. Johnstone's books, the rebels had the great advantage of having a limited nuclear holocaust wipe out most of the country and the government with it so they were able to gather and build without the feds barging in. The rebels also had the resources of the entire country at their disposal. Since nobody was using the stuff, all they had to do was go around and pick it up. At this time, we don't have that luxury. We have jobs to go to, bills to pay, kids to feed. All the little things in day to day life that make it difficult to gather the resources needed and make the preparations necessary to implement such a grand scheme.

    But, with each passing day, as I see our government take another step closer to a totalitarian state and more rights being slowly and covertly stripped from us in front of our eyes, I hope and pray that the people will rise up as one and say "THAT'S ENOUGH!!! THIS GOVERNMENT ISN'T WORKING AND IT'S TIME TO TRY SOMETHING ELSE!" I don't know what the turning point will be. I can envision any number of situations that could precipitate such an occurrence. The Tri-States would work if we allowed it to. The big question for me at this point is how soon and how many will join with me and others like me to build a society that, while not perfect, is at least a good deal better for it's citizens than what we have in place now.
     
  14. RightHand

    RightHand Pioneer in a New World Moderator Founding Member

    Interesting discussion our newer members might enjoy and have some thoughts to add.
     
  15. SLugomist

    SLugomist Monkey++

    That is why you have each individual household. They care for themselves, trade lend aid or a hand, etc..

    In times of trouble you'd have a town meeting and decide on action and who heads it up. You could meet up about certain situations before hand and decide who's in the "army", hospital, crime, fire, food, education, then set up these smaller groups which then would meet and drill on a limited basis in between living life.

    Decide how best to set up and utilize these community services. i.e. if the teacher can't work the field cause she's teaching, then does everyone give payment of say food, money in exchange for educating, or is it to be volunteer? etc

    I don't think their should be one "supreme" leader over all. A loose confederacy. When group decisions are to be made then you have a group meeting and establish a quaroum.
     
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