TOTM June, 2017 is "Organization"

Discussion in 'General Survival and Preparedness' started by ghrit, May 31, 2017.


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  1. ghrit

    ghrit Bad company Administrator Founding Member

    With nods to @GOG, @Salted Weapon, @UncleMorgan, @Motomom34, @duane, @enloopious, and @Yard Dart dart for indirect and direct hints toward the topic.

    Early in the site’s history, there were a lot of backs and forths about going it alone or in a group when WROL happened after the final societal defecation hit the wind machine. In those days, the site was made up more of relatively old timers that were left over from days when the population was half or a bit more than it is today, and there were still remote areas that had not yet seen boot prints in more or less modern history. Yours truly had actually been in the High Uinta and seen that subsistence living was possible, at least in the shape he was in at the time. There was no general consensus as to whether solitary or group existence was a better deal all around, but the tendency was that some kind of group would fare better. Now, from the perspective of time and demographics, the subject begs resurrection and discussion, sez me and maybe not me only.

    Back then, the now common use of the term “community” was not as wide spread as it is today, we tended toward “tribe” or maybe “colony” I don’t remember exactly, but there was no such thing as a “community organizer” outside academic circles. For what it’s worth as an example, we didn’t know that it takes a village to raise kids, it was assumed that the tribe would take care of that societal chore.

    Anyway, times have changed. Population has exploded, BOLs are becoming scarce and well out of the reach of most. Back then, only dot mil had the means to run over you, and a hill top would control a wide area for defense. Now, (for examples) with private ownership of drones and night vision gear, it will take a lot more thought and effort to maintain a defensive posture. I see a trend away from bugging out, and more toward bugging in for long term, ignoring the potential for needing to get out of the way of a (say) fire on a short term basis. Hence, things to think about:

    How will an urban or suburban “tribe” be formed? (You rural and remote folks need to know what’s going on in the towns, eh?)

    What sort of leadership will be needed, and in what areas (external trade, internal economics, defensive, etc.)?

    What sorts of skills will be most useful to the tribe in urban or suburban environments?

    Will the existence of your tribe be widely known or obvious and if so the consequences?

    What sort of “constitution” will be desirable to govern the tribe’s (and its leadership) behaviors?

    How will “misbehavior” (to include goldbricking) be handled? Shunning? Expulsion?

    Perhaps one of the more interesting questions is, “How big is a tribe?” (Suburban development? Apartment building?) And a follow-on item, can the tribe grow, shrink, thrive or simply dry up?
     
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  2. AxesAreBetter

    AxesAreBetter Monkey+++

    Had my way, I'd have a pretty big tribe, and we'd be focused in on improving our way of life...as it stands, I'm pretty well a lone wolf because no one wants to run in a pack.
    Some of it is the divide between old and young, vets and fundamentalists, and the libtards running all over the place.
     
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  3. Asia-Off-Grid

    Asia-Off-Grid RIP 11-8-2018

    Unless the tribe is already established and together, or unless they have a set meeting / gathering location before SHTF, how will they communicate after the fact?
     
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  4. BTPost

    BTPost Stumpy Old Fart Snow Monkey Moderator

    Our "Tribe" is pretty well established, but very loosely confederated... Since we ALL, live Off-Grid and far out in the Alaskan Bush, we are by nessesity, Prep'ers, in every sense of the Definition... If the World came apart, yesterday, we wouldn't change our lifestyle much, except start the Garden in a bigger way, and get the Hydro Power, going ASAP, to conserve our Fuel Resources... Most of the summer would be used doing the same things we always do, except at an much more prolific Rate... getting ready for Winter... Putting up Salmon, Halibut, Cod, and Crab.... Filling the Woodsheds, and all the other summer projects...
     
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  5. M118LR

    M118LR Caution: Does not play well with others.

    So many postulations, and such a narrow response line.
    A group, different than a clan!
    A clan, each bearing allegiance to thier forefathers or blood relatives.
    The lone wolf or Alpha member, usually responsible for initiating a clan, which can become a group at the demise of the clan.

    The belief by the the sheep that by banding together they can oust the wolf. Yet they become dependent on the sheepdog for thier security from other wolves. But they all are just prey animals to the next Alpha Wolf, in search of starting his clan. There is a circle to life.

    Fortune favors the bold, yet they are notorious for just passing on the bloodline.

    There is no urban or suburban without the agrarians. The agrarians shutter in fear of the predator,yet they gather in mass to eradicate those they consider predatory.
    Such is life.

    Forgive me if I "en passant" my French to English, but I believe that it shall be better conceived without translation. JMHO.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2017
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  6. Asia-Off-Grid

    Asia-Off-Grid RIP 11-8-2018

    You folks are very fortunate to have an established community already. Unfortunately for us, the boss and me, we are on our own if anything happens here in Cambodia. We have no established relationships with other like minded people. I never really put much thought in "strength in numbers", before today.
     
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  7. sarawolf

    sarawolf Monkey+++

    We have folks that can move up here but that is a big BUTT if they would what to. We have a somewhat like minded neighbor that lived around a half a mile away. To far for us or him to be of immediate aid. We would rather stay here as our age is finally getting up there. Dh is almost 7 years older than I.
    On the other side of things we can do many many things and teach a whole lot. Construction, plumbing (dh knows water and wastewater like the back of his hand) and all that goes with it. Electricity work, building fence, masonry, raising animals, butchering, hunting, gardening and preserving. Sewing, spinning wool to yarn, tanning hides and many other things. So we as a couple would be assets.
     
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  8. M118LR

    M118LR Caution: Does not play well with others.

    It is only after Y'all have survived individually that you can establish relationships with like minded folks to experience any strength in numbers. To blindly accept others as a community of survivors is the beginning of the end of Y'all's proven individual survival. Could also be the beginning of the end of those that you could have sired to be survivalists, if you didn't extend that leap of faith. JMHO.
     
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  9. chelloveck

    chelloveck Diabolus Causidicus

    An organised group is capable of much more than a disorganised / chaotic group....much depends upon the 'leadership' of the organised, as opposed to the disorganised, and whether or not the led are actively or passively engaged with the organisation and its leadership.

    Over some 15 or so years I have belonged to 4 different Rural Fire Service (new South Wales) and 1 Country Fire Service (South Australia) Brigades...all local volunteer organisations backed up by paid professionals at Municipal/Shire level. Each was a reflection of the history, leadership, and followership of the respective fire brigades. The best operated as a quasi paramilitary organisation, the worst operated as a kind of gentlemen's club with the brigade captain and his 'in group' of loyal supporters maintaining an almost dynastic 'dear leadership' quality of control. The others ranged between those two extremes of efficiency and effectiveness. I suspect that voluntary organisations will attract a variety of leadership 'types'...it's up to the membership of such organisations to actively oppose leadership bids for power that tend towards tyranny...and encourage leadership which tends towards democratic sharing of power between the leader and the led.

    Sometimes to move forward is to move indirectly along a diagonal.;)
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2017
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  10. UncleMorgan

    UncleMorgan I eat vegetables. My friends are not vegetables.

    Generally speaking, the smallest functional tribe needs 22 adults. That bit of data comes from a guy that studied primitive tribes in the Amazon basin. I guess 22 is the magic number that provides a butcher, baker, & candlestick maker (plus one of every other survival specialty that you really need) in order to have a self-sustaining community.

    22 people, however, is too small a group to avoid inbreeding. That's why small tribes pretty much universally require wives to be acquired from outside the tribe.

    Which means there have to be other tribes nearby.

    When TSHTF, each tribe will need to control enough land to carry their population. That means borders, boundaries, and turf wars.

    If five acres will barely support a family of 4 (which, in many places, it won't) then a minimal tribe would need at least 28 acres. That's more land than a small group can easily build a wall around, and simply patrolling that much land to keep out intruders would take at least 12 people, working three shifts of four persons each.

    All the adult males of the tribe, IOW. That doesn't leave much time for tribing.

    So a small tribe needs isolation to substitute for walls and/or guards. And to minimize the turf wars.

    Which puts them right back into having problems with inbreeding.

    The group, gang, clan, tribe, or community is at most only a temporary transitional step in re-establishing nations. For long-term continuity, a large amount of land is needed to support a genetically diverse population, protected by a standing army.
    A central government is required with Rule of Law, so citizens have to behave, whether they want to or not.

    Presto! Nations are reborn, and we start the whole war for supremacy bit all over again.

    That means, within a few years, every hold-out survivalist/prepper group will get a knock on their door and the bracing news that they are now part of a new nation and subject to its government, whether they like it or not.

    And there will probably be a military unit standing by to ensure the peaceful collection of taxes and contraband items such as guns and radios. And maybe the collection of a few hostages, too. Especially the young and pretty ones, because new governments need to avoid inbreeding just as much as we do.

    The only way I can see to come on top of all that is to be the new government.

    And watch out for Postmen.
     
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  11. Asia-Off-Grid

    Asia-Off-Grid RIP 11-8-2018

    Not a problem, if you're from Georgia. :D
     
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  12. Asia-Off-Grid

    Asia-Off-Grid RIP 11-8-2018

    There will not be many "like minded" folks here for us to stand with, I'm afraid. In fact, I imagine we may even end up having to defend our small farm by ourselves, if it comes down to it.

    Not to put them all in the same category, here. But, having spent much of my life in Southeast Asia, I have learned many things about folks on this side of the rock. I have found that many, if not most citizens of these nations, tend to have the same, or a very similar outlook on life. "Live for today, because we may not have a tomorrow." They spend every bit of money they have, and worry about earning more, if tomorrow comes. So, I can't see a lot of them living after a catastrophic event happening, especially if it is not rice season here. (They put up much of their rice in stores, to carry them through dry season.) Others may have cattle and other livestock to fall back on. But, if they don't posses other skills, they too will be history.

    Us? Well, we are building our cattle, chickens and ducks as quickly as we can. (The roosters are doing their part. The poor hens can't get a moment of rest with them around!) Other livestock will be coming, as soon as we have housing constructed for them. (More of those housing projects starting this weekend, in fact.) The cows can only produce one calf about every two years. Gestation is about the same as humans. We now have fish stocked in the pond, as well. Fortunately, everyone is involved and doing their respective parts! :)

    EDIT: The citizens here cannot legally own firearms. So, I know where my first stop would be, at the hint of a world changing event: Cambodia Fire Range They have MANY weapons that can be used to defend your ground.
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2017
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  13. Kingfish

    Kingfish Self Reliant

    Well ? we have a group. We are like minded and many of us have trained together. Over 30 adults. 7 ex military plus one 5 man Michigan Militia fire team led by an Airforce para rescue man. We have brought together farming, raising of livestock , hunter gathering and military type defense of this area. Secured water, food, shelter and security. Better than nothing at all but not as good as an Island fortress. We have a small medical team. Would like to see more money spent there. Still one doctor and one disabled nurse is better than none of either. Working on long range intelligence as in recon of the surrounding area. Would love to be able to watch a 10 mile radius with either drone or space tech.

    My biggest fear is slipping back into being complacent. Lowering our level of readiness. It is hard to keep people at the ready when nothing happens. It gets old. Several of us are working on a rapid response type drill to get the right people into position quickly while the rest get up to speed. Buying time for the group so to speak. It is all about organization when you are talking about 30 people, families, kids, animals etc.
     
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  14. enloopious

    enloopious Rocket Surgeon

    These are now known as gangs. However white people seem to be, in large part, the only ones not forming them. I mean the internet is great and all but what happens to white people, or even regular Americans, when the SHTF? Say a hurricane comes through and you are on your own. Who is going to help you survive the roving gangs? There are secret societies (like the Masons) that will group together for defense/offense but if you are not one of them you will be killed just like countless times before in history. They will NOT save you.

    So there are already people doing this. Some gangs you may know such as the Crips and Bloods and MS13 but others you may not recognize as gangs such as the Police, Masons, Fire Fighters, Fraternal Order of Eagles, ELKs, etc. This means those most likely to suffer are the ones who go with the flow. All of the 'good people' who follow the rules are going to be the ones to take the brunt. That is roughly 80% of the populace.

    Leaders are by definition tyrants according to the current state of the world. The idea of a leader has been corrupted to its core. Elections are a way to ensure that the corrupts continues. A true leader leads by example and people follow them because they want to, not because they either do so or die. Followers at the point of a gun (backed by law) are slaves. If you are told to choose from 2 people you do not know, and who are in all likelihood criminals or worse, you are not free. There are not many good examples of free societies in modern history and I can only hope that the future shows us better than the past. It is really like anything else; until you see the answer it is hard to imagine and only true visionaries can accept it.

    The thing is that if people were willing to fight and to die for actual freedom in the modern world it would catch fire and take off like a rocket. Don't believe me? Don't take my word for it. The EVIL RULERS of this world knew this a long time ago and put it into writing. There was a point where America got to big and the rulers (kings, queens, tyrants, dictators, and presidents etc) got together to team up against the free people of America and bankrupt us.

    The reason they said is because if we were allowed to continue our course the common person in America would be more powerful than the greatest king or queen anywhere. Our freedom was a threat to every dictator in the world and they had the resources to take us down if they acted immediately. How much power is that?

    If we stop and think about it, not the negative parts but the positive parts, we could create a great world where the PEOPLE would have the power to do anything! How many people have said to themselves "I would do X if only I had the resources" and how many kids living in a 3rd world country know how to program code or become physicists or do complex tasks that most cant? We could easily have private companies be in charge of a space program. Think back to the days of Enron or 'too big to fail' and compare those to the days of Wm Hearst, Howard Hughes, or Wm Wrigley Jr.
     
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  15. Dont

    Dont Just another old gray Jarhead Monkey Site Supporter+++

    You forgot the VFW, American legion, Marine Corpe League, and various veteran biker groups as well. All of whom will probably contain some like minded members.

    Overall, I find most prepper's in my Ao to be very tight lipped and do not readily discuss what they have planned. Those that do speak out about their prep's are looked on with suspicion. I have had road side talks with some of the like minded folks that have been here for a long time and have discussed the possibility of outsiders coming in and how to handle them. However, most are of the lone wolf mentality.
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2017
  16. Kingfish

    Kingfish Self Reliant

    Michigan Militia is a pretty large group here in Michigan.
     
  17. Seacowboys

    Seacowboys Senior Member Founding Member

    I am a loner. I have a few friends that I play music with but no real close associates. I do not even know my neighbors. What family I have left all live hundreds of miles away, except for my crazy mother in law: she lives next door and is a constant drain on patience and resources. The only telephone calls I ever get are from bill collectors, telemarketers, and when someone I know dies. RIghthand is my only real friend, we talk once in a while, sometimes every day and sometimes not for weeks but always pick up the conversation just like one of us had to pause a minute to go to the bathroom. My wife is very jealous of her but I don't really care, they are no threat to one another and I don't presume to choose her friends. I expect, when the shit hits the fan, that I will do my best to sustain safety for my immediate family to the best of my abilities but also know that I will be in the first response group trying to save as many lives as I can. It is my nature. My wife says that I am a rescuer and can't help it. I have spent my entire life working in damage control in the wake of tragedy, have saved lives and property, and have proffited from it. My skill set is extremely eclectic but practical in a sense that few can comprehend. When some are delt a lemon, they make lemonaide, me? I'll probably make a battery and use it to ignite an electric match made from ping pong balls (nitrocellulose) and blow up a bridge or two.
     
  18. Dunerunner

    Dunerunner Brewery Monkey Moderator

    I live in a community of retired old folks. The rest of the community is on one form of public assistance or another. Most of the older population is of the mindset that they have lived a long enough life and are just waiting for the Reaper to knock at the door.

    As I have stated in other threads, most residents here will migrate to the valley where they can receive shelter and food without any or little effort on their part. I don't think there will be any issues after the first month with predation, but that is speculation. There will always be looters and opportunists wandering through.

    There are three, perhaps four neighbors that I can depend on, but that is it....
     
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  19. Yard Dart

    Yard Dart Vigilant Monkey Moderator

    Superior firepower and tactics overcomes a lot of things...... ;)
     
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  20. DKR

    DKR Interesting ideas, interesting stories

    [​IMG]
    Sometimes, you can have your own tribe - but a bigger one (with tanks) comes along and takes your toys....and life

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    we can only hope.
     
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