Will your Training get you Killed ?

Discussion in 'General Survival and Preparedness' started by BigO01, Mar 7, 2008.

  1. BigO01

    BigO01 Monkey+++ Founding Member

    The reason I ask is the old but simple saying that we will revert to our training under stress , and yesterday we had a local shooting involving the police that showed at least to me the flaw in much of todays training .

    The cops had been looking for a car thief and one of them wound up in a gunfight with him only to use up all of his ammo and literally crawling on his hands and knees behind his car while the gunman was pursuing him and firing . He was saved by another unit or more arriving and then they began firing at the suspect which caused him to jump in the first cops car and run away .

    Not one single round fired hit the suspect from any of the cops or vice versa .

    Here is a link to the newspaper story , however last nights television account was somewhat different when they interviewed witnesses . http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/ne...63E51932E319761D862574050017D8FD?OpenDocument

    It seems to me the first officer had fired somewhere near 40 rounds "all of our local cops carry Glocks or some other Hi capacity 40 S&W or 9mm with 2 mags on the belt" and didn't hit his attacker a single time .

    So what is our training , and is it the correct training ?

    While I have never attended a formal class I have spoken to many who have and read many books not to mention the information on websites of these trainers who run classes and owning several videos .

    It seems to me the greatest thing to train for is flexibility which most of these classes do not , at least not to the point of taking the offense .
    For instance most of the modern training especially Carry Concealed Classes seem to stress survival through defensive actions only even when firing it is purely in a defense way .

    The use of cover and movement for example , while these are both important skills to learn at the same time , we spend time moving rather than engaging the threat or trying to engage while moving which for most part adversely effects the effectiveness of our fire .

    While we have a greater chance of surviving , at least in whats left of the civilized world what about in a SHTF ?

    If we are engaged by a lone threat that may or may not retreat only to bring a larger force is the mindset of "pure survival" and to avoid the fight at all cost the best to have ?

    In an end of the world situation it may indeed be necessary for one person to sacrifice him/her self for the continuation of the group as a whole and as such need an offensive mindset for the encounter .

    Defensive tactics only may be fine in the city or populated area where the sound of gunfire will attract attention and hopefully help will arrive B4 you run out of bullets but it isn't going to cut it in an isolated area or after the world has changed and there is no help to come rescue your butt .

    All of this is the reason I am a believer in the 45 ACP and 308 Winchester rounds , in a SHTF I wont be simply "Shooting to Stop" an attacker as is presently the standard which makes it a good shoot rather than a bad one that can get you charged with murder .

  2. Seacowboys

    Seacowboys Senior Member Founding Member

    Most of my training is aggressive in nature. I began with IPSC and IDPA, where you engage the target against a clock. I have participated in a number of combat rifle and pistol courses that were oriented towards ending the fight rather than disengaging. I can see where this could get me killed; paper targets don't shoot back. I do have a local group that engages in mock gun-battles with airsoft that I put together a while back. We use our company warehouse as a stage for ambush scenarios and response. Each team member will draw a card from a hat. The cards will be labeled friend, unarmed, and bad guy. Sometimes the bad-guys out number the friends or unarmed. Nobody knows who draws what.
  3. ghrit

    ghrit Bad company Administrator Founding Member

    I've often wondered if the common idea of spraying the area intending to keep the BGs head down would work. Seems like it doesn't. (And we still don't know the round count.) SC is right about the risk of "standing up" and actively engaging the target puts you at greater risk. However, it seems to me that the BGs miss as often or oftener than the "good" guys.

    Can't help wondering what the cop was thinking when he approached without calling for backup. Well, maybe he did and the usual delay for response happened, just like calling 9-1-1.
  4. monkeyman

    monkeyman Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    I think the big flaw is in the 'one size fits all' situations aproach. The only part of training that I figure applies to at least NEARLY all situations is that if you need to be shooting in the first place, just makeing noise dont do much good and if you are not able to put lead on target thats all you are doing. As far as the use of cover and moveing and so on, I figure thats totaly situational. Obviously if you are 3' from the front bumber of a car and the other shooter is across the stret then getting behind the engine and being able to use the hood to brace shots would beat standing out in the open. OTOH if you are 50' from cover I would not want to try to run that under fire when I could just take a fraction of that tie to aim and end the confrontation along with the other guys life. If, like in about 90%+ of civilian shooting, you are less than 20' (generaly less than 12') from the other guy then trying to get to cover is most likely just going to get you shot if its more than 1 step. I figure the absolute first thing to survive a shooting (after being armed) is to be accurate enouph to hit where you want the bullet to go followed by being able to deploy the gun and fire accurately QUICKLY. If you can get your gun out and put 2 rounds in the other guys chest then shoot the head untill the guy stops moveing (the 2 to the chest being optional) and have the first hit then you live and they dont and you probably dont get shot. The other thing being the fact that you also dont get sued or tossed in prison for the 5 folks who got hit by those 40 stray bullets.

    Thats the main reason my training generaly consists of drawing from concealment and fireing 2 shots at one target then 3 at another (or 2 to the chest then 3 to the head on a B27), then reholster and repeat often starting of faced away from the target and drawing as I turn. Then I also practice some from sitting positions or on my back. I try to work some on speed but focus more on keeping every shot not just in the chest but in the position and space of the heart and not just in the head but in the space of clean brain hits. I figure its kind of like hunting, if you learn to hit ACCURATLY well enouph firstthen when that deer or rabbit sprints from cover to cover you are able to snap up and hit it solid instantly, if you practice just shooting fast (or dont practice at all) then you will spend all of your rounds and watch the untouched critter keep on going.

    Oh, then theres my BIG gripe with the way most of the 'pros' say you should train, most of them all train to shoot for center of mass. The B27s are even marked with the bullseye at center of mass. Hold a B27 up in front of you some time and line it up with your body...what is the 'x' over? Nothing, its just below the diaphram. So if you train to shoot the 'x' or center of mass andyou default to your training then if you hit where you are aiming you will gut shoot the bad guy and if he dont make it to a Dr he will probably die in a few HOURS. Train to shoot for kill zones, NOT center of mass. Shoot for center of chest or center of heart and shoot for the bridge of the nose and make sure that if you practice on B27 or similar that you practice shooting for these same spots NOT the scoreing rings.
  5. E.L.

    E.L. Moderator of Lead Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    A while back I was reading an article about officer involved shootings and the training that LE goes through, the article stated that the statistics had shown that the officers that did not seek cover first but stood their ground and shot were killed at a lot high ratio than those that ran for cover (almost always their squad car) then returned fire. As such LE has modified their training. If I come across the article again I will scan it and insert it here. I cannot argue with that logic, but I know that every scenario is different. What you also have to keep in mind though is that most cops shoot very little. Some qualify once of twice a year, and that is all they shoot. Scary huh? Especially for them and their families. Lots of LE men and women are just not "gun people". They see it as a tool, as such they leave it in the tool box until they need it, but they do not practice with it to be become proficient. Lots of cops are guns guys, buts lots are also not.
  6. sheen_estevez

    sheen_estevez Monkey+++

    Years ago when I was in LE training the standard range time was standing in front of a target, interview stance, within a few feet, whistle blew, draw, double tap, holster whistle blew, all timed, move back and repeat, they didn't get much into actual situations, getting out of a car and in the process having to draw and fire, mid way between cars having to change direction while drawing and firing etc. Always thought it was strange and not a good move. In those situations you will revert to your training until the adrenaline kicks in, then all bets are off, unless you know how you are going to react to the adrenaline kick. If you train in more real situations as Sea mentioned, even in the training you will get that kick and can master your reactions under that stress, the more realistic you can make it using both cover and open situations over and over the more muscle memory will kick in and the adrenaline kick can be controlled

    just my two cents
  7. Sgt. Art

    Sgt. Art Monkey+++

    It is not necessarily the training but the individual. Most cops are not gun people they only shoot when they have to qualify and that is because they have to qualify. If their agency doesn't provide = pay for tactical trainin then they get none. When I was on the job I shot and trained often and on my own dime something many of my fellow officers wouldn't do. Also with regards to the training it is usually geared to documenting that an individual can put X number of holes in a given space.
survivalmonkey SSL seal        survivalmonkey.com warrant canary